Betty
Member
What is police policy for property belonging to persons they arrest?
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Police hold activists but discard property
- Thread starter w4rma
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mountainclmbr
Member
The anarchists only got 10 percent of what they wish for. The ACLU has sided with the communists for a long time. They only stand up for tearing down value systems so that they can establish their own dream of a utopia. They are what Stalin called USEFUL IDIOTS. They were quickly rounded up and killed in Russia when they were no longer useful. People should be very, very careful about what they wish for. Intelligent people should loudly object to having idiots determine their future!
hammer4nc, no such thing is attached to that file, which is a compressed archive, not an image. If some license nonsense pops up, it's because of something on your computer. I think most major decompression utilities will decompress that file just fine.
Not only does the ACLU bill itself as a civil rights protection organization while failing to protect a civil right, but its position is that the 2nd amendment doesn't clearly confer a civil right. I don't think you'll find the GOA arguing that people have no right against self incrimination or that people have no right to fair compensation for government takings.
Not only does the ACLU bill itself as a civil rights protection organization while failing to protect a civil right, but its position is that the 2nd amendment doesn't clearly confer a civil right. I don't think you'll find the GOA arguing that people have no right against self incrimination or that people have no right to fair compensation for government takings.
Why are all these commie-types worried about (GASP!) their property? They can just share things collectively. And what are they doing with money and credit cards? It sure takes a lot of money to be a proletarian, with designer Che Guevarra T-shirts and all.
Seriously, this sucks and the police sound like boorish thugs. I can't stand these people, but it isn't cops' job to make value decisions and retaliate against them for their idiotic political and economic beliefs (hypocritical as they are).
Seriously, this sucks and the police sound like boorish thugs. I can't stand these people, but it isn't cops' job to make value decisions and retaliate against them for their idiotic political and economic beliefs (hypocritical as they are).
w4rma
member
A couple of things:
First: Many, probably most, of the folks at this protest were **NOT** comunists or anarchists. They were protesting the Free Trade Area of the Americas. They were protesting this neo-liberal/neo-conservative policy which is my understanding that many folks here on TheHighRoad disagree with. They were standing up for a good number of us and they were being shot with rubber bullets and had their belongings trashed by the miami police for it.
Secondly: The GOA will not spend resources on a lawyer to protect our right against self incrimination or our right to fair compensation for government takings. The ACLU will and does. IMHO, folks should support the ACLU because they are the only organization I know of that will spend resources to protect these rights that our Constitution gives us.
First: Many, probably most, of the folks at this protest were **NOT** comunists or anarchists. They were protesting the Free Trade Area of the Americas. They were protesting this neo-liberal/neo-conservative policy which is my understanding that many folks here on TheHighRoad disagree with. They were standing up for a good number of us and they were being shot with rubber bullets and had their belongings trashed by the miami police for it.
Secondly: The GOA will not spend resources on a lawyer to protect our right against self incrimination or our right to fair compensation for government takings. The ACLU will and does. IMHO, folks should support the ACLU because they are the only organization I know of that will spend resources to protect these rights that our Constitution gives us.
I'll wait until Neal Boortz digs up the dirt on these, before rendering final judgement. IMO, it doesn't matter if most of these people weren't, as (like the anti-war rallies earlier this year) those who sponsor these protests often ARE. That they can recruit ignorant sheeple to provide warm bodies for media photo-ops is no surprise.
That often depend on whether or not they agree with you and your cause.
greyhound
Member
is anyone besides me getting sick of how the press has to always fall all over themselves to paint protesters as a "slice of American society"?
Sure, there are a few dupes who love America but disagree with the "stated" cause of the protest, but the majority are hard core leftists who believe that even ex-President Clinton was a right winger and the only "cure" for our "evil" is a semi-socialist state a la Europe.
At least this account admitted that there were "anarchists" as opposed to the usual trick of playing up the "housewives and grandparents" angle.
Folks, anyone going around throwing bricks through McDonald's and Starbuck's windows is not protesting because they "love America".
While i think a large number of these protesters probably ARE anarchists or communists, i do NOT believe that opposition to NAFTA makes one such. Personally i think that "free trade" has taken enough american jobs and is looking to take more if we let it.
w4rma
member
FTAA: Bad for North American Jobs, Bad for Latin American Growth
In 1994, Ross Perot said the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) would be "a giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the United States. But the governments of the United States, Canada and Mexico pressed ahead, claiming that NAFTA would "fuel economic growth, promote environmental protection, and provide greater job opportunities in North America."
Today, advocates of the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) – which would expand NAFTA to Central and South America – are making the same promises: millions of new, really good jobs in the industrialized North; unprecedented growth and prosperity in the developing South.
As trade ministers from the 34 nations of the Americas meet in Miami during the week of November 16, however, three new studies reveal that NAFTA’s results after nearly 10 years are much closer to Ross Perot’s "giant sucking sound" than the rosy promises of NAFTA’s cheerleaders:
…
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/714.php
USWA, AFL-CIO Rally and March to Protest FTAA Amidst Storm-trooper Atmosphere
Miami — Nearly 2,000 Steelworkers, joined by several thousand trade unionists from Southern Florida, rallied here at the Bayside Park Amphitheater to protest the ministerial meetings of the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) taking place at the nearby Intercontinental Hotel.
…
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/732.php
Steel March in Miami
"En route to the Workers' Forum, sponsored in Miami by the AFL-CIO, Steelworkers, led by President Leo Gerard, spontaneously joined members of the United Students Against Sweatshops, who were protesting the FTAA outside a Burdine's department store."
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/711.php
FTAA's Threat to the American Steel Industry
"At the AFL-CIO's Worker Forum in Miami, Nov. 19, USWA Local 6787 member Allen Long testified on FTAA's threat to the American steel industry . Long called for solidarity among all workers of the Americas in opposing FTAA, and expresed outrage at the oppressive presence of armed military and police throughout the city."
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/712.php
Stop FTAA
If you thought that NAFTA was a disaster, wait ‘til you see what the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) agreement does to us.
More than 765,000 jobs have disappeared as a result of the NAFTA trade agreement. Now global corporate interests are working to expand NAFTA to 34 countries in North, Central, South America and the Caribbean.
…
View the map and join the march when it comes to your part of the country.
Learn more about the March to Miami.
Sign up for the FTAA Mobilization Conference
View March to Miami Events.
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/329.php
Stop FTAA Photo Highlights
Tens of thousands of workers and their allies traveled to Miami for four days of events in November to protest the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), a bad trade deal that will accelerate U.S. job loss and environmental degredation.
…
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/globaleconomy/ftaa_miami.cfm
Like I said, Many, probably most, of the folks at this protest were **NOT** comunists or anarchists. But, don't wait for a right-wing corporate propagandist to tell you that. They are paid the big bucks to lie to you.
In 1994, Ross Perot said the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) would be "a giant sucking sound" of jobs leaving the United States. But the governments of the United States, Canada and Mexico pressed ahead, claiming that NAFTA would "fuel economic growth, promote environmental protection, and provide greater job opportunities in North America."
Today, advocates of the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) – which would expand NAFTA to Central and South America – are making the same promises: millions of new, really good jobs in the industrialized North; unprecedented growth and prosperity in the developing South.
As trade ministers from the 34 nations of the Americas meet in Miami during the week of November 16, however, three new studies reveal that NAFTA’s results after nearly 10 years are much closer to Ross Perot’s "giant sucking sound" than the rosy promises of NAFTA’s cheerleaders:
…
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/714.php
USWA, AFL-CIO Rally and March to Protest FTAA Amidst Storm-trooper Atmosphere
Miami — Nearly 2,000 Steelworkers, joined by several thousand trade unionists from Southern Florida, rallied here at the Bayside Park Amphitheater to protest the ministerial meetings of the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) taking place at the nearby Intercontinental Hotel.
…
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/732.php
Steel March in Miami
"En route to the Workers' Forum, sponsored in Miami by the AFL-CIO, Steelworkers, led by President Leo Gerard, spontaneously joined members of the United Students Against Sweatshops, who were protesting the FTAA outside a Burdine's department store."
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/711.php
FTAA's Threat to the American Steel Industry
"At the AFL-CIO's Worker Forum in Miami, Nov. 19, USWA Local 6787 member Allen Long testified on FTAA's threat to the American steel industry . Long called for solidarity among all workers of the Americas in opposing FTAA, and expresed outrage at the oppressive presence of armed military and police throughout the city."
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/712.php
Stop FTAA
If you thought that NAFTA was a disaster, wait ‘til you see what the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA) agreement does to us.
More than 765,000 jobs have disappeared as a result of the NAFTA trade agreement. Now global corporate interests are working to expand NAFTA to 34 countries in North, Central, South America and the Caribbean.
…
View the map and join the march when it comes to your part of the country.
Learn more about the March to Miami.
Sign up for the FTAA Mobilization Conference
View March to Miami Events.
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/329.php
Stop FTAA Photo Highlights
Tens of thousands of workers and their allies traveled to Miami for four days of events in November to protest the Free Trade Area of the Americas (FTAA), a bad trade deal that will accelerate U.S. job loss and environmental degredation.
…
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/globaleconomy/ftaa_miami.cfm
Like I said, Many, probably most, of the folks at this protest were **NOT** comunists or anarchists. But, don't wait for a right-wing corporate propagandist to tell you that. They are paid the big bucks to lie to you.
jimpeel
Member
Free trade is not the problem. Fair trade is the problem. We stress the free part but ignore the fair part; and fair trade is what we need if we are to have free trade.
Lets put it this way- when you arrest someone, you're responsible for them and whatever property they have on them. So if the cops are stripping off property and discarding it, thats not right. However, in most mass-arrest situations there is a substantial amount of property that gets jetisoned by the arrestee as he attempts to elude capture, resist arrest, or get clear of the crowd and/or crowd control munitions. The police are under no obligation to go pick that up and attempt to reunite it with its owner.
Its clear that some of the statements are alleging that the former occurred. However, I'm curious as to how much was the former and how much was the latter. Also, as this event was filmed extensively, one would think that this (if it happened as reported) would be captured on film...such should make an allegation of misconduct credible.
Also, if you end up with some sort of exigent circumstance, concerns for property go right out the window. The cops are not going to sit and sort property items while bottles are lobbed at them and their prisoners.
Mike
Its clear that some of the statements are alleging that the former occurred. However, I'm curious as to how much was the former and how much was the latter. Also, as this event was filmed extensively, one would think that this (if it happened as reported) would be captured on film...such should make an allegation of misconduct credible.
Also, if you end up with some sort of exigent circumstance, concerns for property go right out the window. The cops are not going to sit and sort property items while bottles are lobbed at them and their prisoners.
Mike
Anti-capitalists complaining about losing their consumer goods is kind of funny.
You would think that "anarchists" would want absolutely no government intervention in the market. Both they and their Big Labor cohorts are complaining about a show of force. Ironically, that force is exactly what they want to be used upon consenting individual adults who conduct capitalist acts.
"Fair trade" sounds like another euphamism for protectionism.
http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/pas/pa-164es.html
You would think that "anarchists" would want absolutely no government intervention in the market. Both they and their Big Labor cohorts are complaining about a show of force. Ironically, that force is exactly what they want to be used upon consenting individual adults who conduct capitalist acts.
"Fair trade" sounds like another euphamism for protectionism.
http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/pas/pa-164es.html
another okie
Member
Who's protecting my Third Amendment rights? I didn't say that Marine could drink my beer!
TheeBadOne
Member
Like, say for example, a riot?
Brett Bellmore
Member
Personally, as someone who was an anarchist for a while, and still has some respect for the position, I'm sick of the press letting those socialists get away with calling themselves "anarchists" at the same time as they're demanding trade laws. Like heck they're "anarchists'! Except maybe in the old nasty stereotype of bomb throwers.
The GOA might not spend much money defending my 5th amendment rights, but they don't officially claim that I don't HAVE any 5th amemdment rights. If the ACLU similarly admitted that I had a constitutional right to be armed, but simply said that defending it wasn't their gig, I'd probably join. But, no, in order to perpetuate the lie that they defend all our rights, they pretend that the rights they chose not to defend are non-existant. That's not neutrality, it's an attack.
The GOA might not spend much money defending my 5th amendment rights, but they don't officially claim that I don't HAVE any 5th amemdment rights. If the ACLU similarly admitted that I had a constitutional right to be armed, but simply said that defending it wasn't their gig, I'd probably join. But, no, in order to perpetuate the lie that they defend all our rights, they pretend that the rights they chose not to defend are non-existant. That's not neutrality, it's an attack.
Exactly, TBO, exactly. If its a peaceful demonstration and the arrestees are being stripped of property and carted off, thats one thing. If its a bottle-throwing brawl and the cops are trying to clear the area with an eye to their safety and, not incidentally, the safety of the person they just snatched up, thats another.Like, say for example, a riot?
As is so often the case, it kinda depends on what exactly was going on.
Mike
fallingblock
Member
Thank you, Brett Belmore....
"in order to perpetuate the lie that they defend all our rights, they pretend that the rights they chose not to defend are non-existant. That's not neutrality, it's an attack."
************************************************************
I was preparing to say much the same myself.
There can be no doubt whatsoever.
The ACLU is anti-gun and anti-Second Amendment, and therefore hypocritical in its position of claiming to be concerned about the rights of Americans.
I have little respect for the organization, and would certainly not support it.
"in order to perpetuate the lie that they defend all our rights, they pretend that the rights they chose not to defend are non-existant. That's not neutrality, it's an attack."
************************************************************
I was preparing to say much the same myself.
There can be no doubt whatsoever.
The ACLU is anti-gun and anti-Second Amendment, and therefore hypocritical in its position of claiming to be concerned about the rights of Americans.
I have little respect for the organization, and would certainly not support it.
BryanP
Member
*sigh*
Okay, most of us agree we don't like the ACLU's position on RKBA. Further, we can say that many of us disagree with the positions of the students who were arrested. Stipulated. Done. Out of the way. That has nothing to do with the main thrust here - the actions of the Miami PD when arresting people who were peacefully protesting.
Before you start making jokes about how funny it is to abuse the leftists, try mentally recasting the scene. What if it was a bunch of people protesting a proposed gun ban and and they were treated the same way? Something tells me you wouldn't be making jokes and smirking. If this behavior on the behalf of the Miami PD can be proven those guys need to be fired. There's no excuse.
Okay, most of us agree we don't like the ACLU's position on RKBA. Further, we can say that many of us disagree with the positions of the students who were arrested. Stipulated. Done. Out of the way. That has nothing to do with the main thrust here - the actions of the Miami PD when arresting people who were peacefully protesting.
Before you start making jokes about how funny it is to abuse the leftists, try mentally recasting the scene. What if it was a bunch of people protesting a proposed gun ban and and they were treated the same way? Something tells me you wouldn't be making jokes and smirking. If this behavior on the behalf of the Miami PD can be proven those guys need to be fired. There's no excuse.
Teufelhunden
Member
We've weakly settled if we now consider anyone who isn't obviously and clearly our enemy to be our friends. Absence of one status does not grant the other in my mind; my friends are my friends, not just people who haven't gone out of their way to harm me yet.
They do some good work, but I think it's politically expedient and cowardly to take a neutral stance on an Amendment that is written as clearly as any of the others in the Bill of Rights. If they're concerned at all about catering to their left-wing constituancy, they've lost sight of the fact that our civil rights are non-partisan and have corrupted their own institution.
-Teuf
FPrice
Member
w4rma...
posted by w4rmw,
"IN BRIEF
The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control."
Posted on the ACLU website:
"We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration."
w4rma - IN BRIEF you are incorrect. the ACLU is NOT neutral on the Second. They are anti and their own website proves it.
posted by w4rmw,
"IN BRIEF
The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control."
Posted on the ACLU website:
"We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration."
w4rma - IN BRIEF you are incorrect. the ACLU is NOT neutral on the Second. They are anti and their own website proves it.
Master Blaster
Member
When I worked in Philadelphia, I witnessed the republican convention and the "anarchist protestors" and the police actions under Herr Loitman
Timoney, who was chief of police in Philadelphia and now chief of police of Miami Fla. He believes in heavy handed military tactics. He probably precipitated some of the violence which was minimal in Philadelphia.
The anarchists were not really anarchists, and were very well organized, folks with radios on roller skates were directing them. Mostly passive resistance, some street shows with puppets.
The folks with gear and backpacks were bystanders caught in the confusion.
All of the anarchists I saw were light and fast and dressed for arrest, they did not have any backpacks or belongings.
Since when is peacful protest which includes yelling insults but not attacking (like I saw in Philadelphia) cause for police to use violence to precipitate a riot.????
Timoney, who was chief of police in Philadelphia and now chief of police of Miami Fla. He believes in heavy handed military tactics. He probably precipitated some of the violence which was minimal in Philadelphia.
The anarchists were not really anarchists, and were very well organized, folks with radios on roller skates were directing them. Mostly passive resistance, some street shows with puppets.
The folks with gear and backpacks were bystanders caught in the confusion.
All of the anarchists I saw were light and fast and dressed for arrest, they did not have any backpacks or belongings.
Since when is peacful protest which includes yelling insults but not attacking (like I saw in Philadelphia) cause for police to use violence to precipitate a riot.????
Master Blaster
Member
How to cause a riot in a peacefull but noisy crowd 101
By John Timoney:
1. Find an area closed in on two sides by large buildings and filled with protestors.
2. surrond the protestors with police in riot gear with tear gas and clubs.
3. erect barriers at either end of the street ensuring no escape.
4. have a large contingent of riot clad police on either end of the street.
5. have the police press the crowd from both ends forcing the folks closer and closer together.
6. introduce tear gas, and start hitting the nearest protesters with clubs while confining the crowd to a smaller ands smaller space with no way to escape.
7. Bring in the paddy wagon and start arresting anyone nearby.
8. You now have a riot, panic grips the crowd, people start breaking windows and trashing cars, more police, more teargas, rubber bullets.
9. start arresting folks who were watching and are now not smart enough to escape (hint not the anarchists who recognized the situation and escaped)
10. Dump their belongings on the street.
Congratulations you have now started a riot amoung peaceful protesters.
Note this also works really well on a mardi gras crowd that has been drinking all day on south street.
By John Timoney:
1. Find an area closed in on two sides by large buildings and filled with protestors.
2. surrond the protestors with police in riot gear with tear gas and clubs.
3. erect barriers at either end of the street ensuring no escape.
4. have a large contingent of riot clad police on either end of the street.
5. have the police press the crowd from both ends forcing the folks closer and closer together.
6. introduce tear gas, and start hitting the nearest protesters with clubs while confining the crowd to a smaller ands smaller space with no way to escape.
7. Bring in the paddy wagon and start arresting anyone nearby.
8. You now have a riot, panic grips the crowd, people start breaking windows and trashing cars, more police, more teargas, rubber bullets.
9. start arresting folks who were watching and are now not smart enough to escape (hint not the anarchists who recognized the situation and escaped)
10. Dump their belongings on the street.
Congratulations you have now started a riot amoung peaceful protesters.
Note this also works really well on a mardi gras crowd that has been drinking all day on south street.
Master Blaster
Member
Starting a riot 102 an Anarchists notebook:
Yoou need 4 strong anarchists and a pack of matches.
1. Pick a busy street at rush hour filled with commuters leaving work.
2. find a dumpster with some paper in it.
3. push the dumpster into the middle of 16th and chestnut, and set the paper on fire.
4. Roller skate away as police are arriving in force.
5. Police arrive to the crowd of onlookers.
6. Police follow directions in 101 rather than putting out the fire and moving the dumpster.
7. You now have commuters and onlookers trapped in a pitched conflict with police.
Yoou need 4 strong anarchists and a pack of matches.
1. Pick a busy street at rush hour filled with commuters leaving work.
2. find a dumpster with some paper in it.
3. push the dumpster into the middle of 16th and chestnut, and set the paper on fire.
4. Roller skate away as police are arriving in force.
5. Police arrive to the crowd of onlookers.
6. Police follow directions in 101 rather than putting out the fire and moving the dumpster.
7. You now have commuters and onlookers trapped in a pitched conflict with police.
TallPine
Member
Apparently since the First Amendment has been repealed ...
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