Police hold activists but discard property

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If they are in the area after the lawful order to disperse is given, they are subject to arrest.

thats great Coronach.

Innocent Bystanders comming out of work, or people watching on their lunch break deserve whatever they get, as long as our overlords the police issued an order.

Riot 102 my example above, I was comming out of Two Liberty place wearing a suit and tie when it happened. There is no assumption, I saw the whole thing the dumpster wheel out to the intersection of 16th and Chestnut, the fire started, the anarchists leaving on roller skates, and the police arrival and reaction.

I was able to duck back into work and avoid the pepper spray, and the JBT squad.

Did you play the robbot in Robo cop 1???

quote:

"You are Illegally parked (trap door on robot opens twin 50 cal mini guns appear) you have 15 seconds to move your vehicle" Twin 50s turn car into burning rubble.
Thank you citizen for your cooperation, NOW MOVE ALONG.
 
BryanP -

Before you start making jokes about how funny it is to abuse the leftists, try mentally recasting the scene. What if it was a bunch of people protesting a proposed gun ban and and they were treated the same way?

I don't look lightly upon anybody getting genuinely mistreated by heavy handed authorities. Don't know what really happened in this case.

These kids were there and had this to report: http://bureaucrash.com/crash.shtml

However, a more accurate mental recasting of the scene would be a few of the million mommies getting mugged on the way home from clamoring to take away my right to defend myself.

The Miami protesters have no qualms at all if the authorities use any amount of force to deprive me of economic freedom. They,in fact, demand it.

So, I'll afford myself the occasional chuckle when a group of statists get hit by the Karma Cab they are hailing.
 
Re the ACLU being "neutral" on gun rights, The Second Amendment or whatever one might choose to call it, the following comes to mind.

Given that the BOR involves the most basic of considerations, specific admonitions directed at the Federal Government at least, telling them in effect WHERE THEY SHALL NOT GO, I fail to see how any organization claiming to be a suppoorter of peoples rights can be "neutral" on a matter so basic.

Of course, it might well be that the ACLU is more "flexible" than I am.
 
If they are in the area after the lawful order to disperse is given, they are subject to arrest.
thats great Coronach.

Innocent Bystanders comming out of work, or people watching on their lunch break deserve whatever they get, as long as our overlords the police issued an order.
The police are charged with restoring order in a given area. They arrive in the area, issue a clear and loud order that people in the area need to disperse, usually due to the assembly not being peaceful. The point of issuing a loud and clear (and lawful) order is so that innocent people are not caught in the resultant police response. Side note: if you are 'just watching' and 'just watching' entails being in the area and not leaving when ordered, you are not an 'innocent bystander.'

Yes, this is one of those few instances in which the police have the power to order people to vacate an area.

Riot 102 my example above, I was comming out of Two Liberty place wearing a suit and tie when it happened. There is no assumption, I saw the whole thing the dumpster wheel out to the intersection of 16th and Chestnut, the fire started, the anarchists leaving on roller skates, and the police arrival and reaction.
Then you /should/ have heard the commanding officer "read the riot act". If that didn't happen, it certainly should have. When I've seen it happen it was done several times, with a bullhorn, vehicle PA system, or from an overhead helicopter. There is utterly no question that the people at the scene are informed.

That said, I don't work for Philly PD, but I cannot imagine them doing it much differently. Also, possible for someone to just wander into this between the warnings and the reaction? Always possible, unfortunately. But this does not relieve the police of the duty to maintain order in the area.

I was able to duck back into work and avoid the pepper spray, and the JBT squad.
In other words you did what you were required to do by law. Good on you.

Did you play the robbot in Robo cop 1???

quote:

"You are Illegally parked (trap door on robot opens twin 50 cal mini guns appear) you have 15 seconds to move your vehicle" Twin 50s turn car into burning rubble.
Thank you citizen for your cooperation, NOW MOVE ALONG.
Please reread the Rules of Conduct to which you agreed to comply when you created your account. Spamming, trolling and personal attacks are prohibited.

Mike
 
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Miami

The police caused the escalation of that protest. There are many indy media pictures of Miami cops roughing up citizens who were either just passing through or were simply exercising a ligitimate 1st Amendment right. The mainstream media gave this event zero coverage, but I suppose in the face of unchecked corporate power, it's quite acceptable to slander a group collectively, ridicule their intentions, and then attempt to actively deprive them of Constitutional rights. The hypocrisy in this is that many gun owners complain about the SAME THING when it is their particular ox being gored. :rolleyes: Hang together or we will all surely hang separately.
 
The police caused the escalation of that protest.
The same thing is said after every civil disturbance everywhere. While it may not always be wrong, I can think of relatively few modern times when it has been right.
The mainstream media gave this event zero coverage...
I dunno. I watched quite a bit of coverage and discussion of it on CNN, FNC, and broadcast media. While it might not have garnered the full coverage and 'correct' spin to please you, your assertion is demonstrably false.

Mike
 
Spin

The media are going to spin the story in accordance with their paymasters. There is no interest in reporting news or issues, only an MTV-timed snippet of a story that is nothing more than a quick opinion of events rather than any relevant coverage. It is absurd to me that protestors can be physically corralled, shot with rubber bullets, beaten, and gassed while simply exercising their 1st Amendment rights. This is similar to Dubya's Orwellian "Free Speech Zones" in which protestors are isolated from any event he happens to attend. Luckily, he won't see protestors at any servicemens' funerals since he's too busy to show up for any of them. El Presidente has set the tone for this country and simply put, if something does not check the advance of a militarized police, all of our rights are in the toilet.
 
Maybe moderators who are also policemen should recuse themselves in this kind of discussion.

Edit: Or maybe I should have said, "refrain from taking a partisan part in this kind of discussion."
 
If accurately reported, this is indeed shocking and unexcusable police behavior. This has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment, or Communists, or a student's age (who cares?). I can't believe some of the comments in this thread. Sounds to me like some people exercising Constitutionally protected rights got their nuts kicked.

And if they were protesting an extension of NAFTA, more power to them. That POS Clinton agreement has done nothing but harm to the American middle class.
 
Maybe moderators who are also policemen should recuse themselves in this kind of discussion.

Edit: Or maybe I should have said, "refrain from taking a partisan part in this kind of discussion."
Why is that?

Solinvictus70-

While the event did not garner intense media coverage, the coverage I did witness was substantially better than "mtv snippets" (a failing of modern media as a whole). As to your assertions that protestors are gassed/beaten/shot for 'exercising 1st amendment rights', in each demonstration that I saw where the police had such a response, the crowd in question had engaged in acts of violence and/or property destruction. The BoR assures the right to peaceably assemble.

Mike
 
Re the quality or lack thereof, of the media/press coverage of the events discussed in the foregoing, interested parties might consider reading the following:

Arrogance by Bernard Goldberg. Mr. Goldberg's previous work is entitled Bias.

Goldberg spent 28 years with CBS News. Readers might draw their own conclusions from that, however the book is interesting in general, and for gun owners, the section starting at page 185 might prove particularly intertresting. It is headed, And Now, the Rest of the Story...
 
If this behavior on the behalf of the Miami PD can be proven those guys need to be fired. There's no excuse.
More likely the city will be sued and end up paying a hefty out of court settlement. Any JBTs that actually did the deed will be unscathed, and the taxpayers will foot the bill.

Sounds to me like Miami is trying to set the new standard in alienating civil rights.
 
This is going to remain a civil discussion, or this thread doesn't have to continue.

In order to learn, we've got to hear both sides of the story, from people with different viewpoints on the subject.

It's easy to dogpile on a person who has the unpopular opinion and then tell him he doesn't belong in the discussion because that person conveniently happens to be a moderator and a police officer. Not only are there multiple moderators for all forums, moderators are also members and are allowed to share their opinions like everyone else. If someone has a problem with that, or thinks that a thread is somehow being moderated in a biased manner, than drop another moderator a PM. Otherwise, can the personal attacks and debate the topic in a reasonable manner.
 
Sounds to me like Miami is trying to set the new standard in alienating civil rights.
Thats an pretty bold statement, considering that all we have are allegations of misconduct. Could there be misconduct? Absolutely. But there are also perfectly plausible reasons on how a person could be arrested in a riot and his stuff gets left behind. I've already named a few.

Mike
 
Sorry, Coronach, Betty,

didn't mean to be rude, just trying to point at possible personal preferences maybe influencing thoughts.


Edit: Excuse, please; new South Park episode coming on right now, must watch. Back in 1/2 hr.
 
Miami

I've really been pondering the events in Miami and the reaction of the public to the police actions. It seems that in El Presidente's America, authorities and the media are attempting to establish a conceptual link between ligitimate political protest and terrorism. If you consider the heavy handed pre-emptive actions of the police; corralling protesters with a shield wall into a fence and attacking them with gas, batons, and rubber projectiles, it appears that we Americans are in for it if we have an issue with the government. El Presidente has, through the Secret Service, squelched all dissent by insuring that protest if physically removed from his presence. If the entire notion of "Free Speech Zones" does not infuriate your sensibilities, then I don't know what will. Even if there were troublemakers in Miami, which it's doubtless that there were, the police overreacted with a calculated use of physical force against unarmed protestors who were exercising their 1st Amendment rights.

In America, the dominant perspective has become the drive for corporate profit. The belief is one of an almost religious fervor as any who dare state that worker's rights, the environment, or a modicum of job protection be considered are labeled as heretics with an immediate zeal unheard of since the Inquisition. Without exception, media outlets portray anti-globalization protestors in the most negative way possible and throughout the print media, the mention of activists evokes an immediate invective against the individuals and their views. Regardless of political beliefs, many Americans are sick and tired of the downward spiral of employment; meaning the quest by corporations for the lowest wages possible anywhere in the world. I find it ironic that in the initial debates on NAFTA a decade ago, pundits were touting the growth of an emerging technology sector that would solve the woes of vanishing manufacturing jobs. Now, the tech jobs are moving to India as corporations have an ideal condition with well educated Third World workers. The entire notion of "free trade" as endorsed by our oligarchs in tantamount to economic treason. It creates a job loss within our borders and it erodes our national sovereignty. Wall Steet loves it, though, because layoffs of many mean profits for the few. I've never understood the way America has swallowed the Wall Street/Federal Reserve scheme of maintaining an agreed upon level of unemployment for the benefit of a select few shareholders.

We've allowed ourselves to become far too divided as citizens. The media keeps hammering away at stereotypes to divide and conquer us for their corporate paymasters. The fact is, the media fosters this division for its own advantage. Do you sincerely believe that, at the core, there is a bit of difference between ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and CNN? No, not at all, they're ultimately promoting the same agenda, which is the erosion and eradication of individual civil liberties. The media does not exist to report the news, it is there to encourage a sense of consensus that supports the ultimate agenda of corporate/state control above individual rights. Face the facts, in America, you can have as much justice, legislative representation, and even public consent as you can afford to buy. Corporations, not individual voters, drive our political machine through contributions. Why else would someone raise $200 million to get a job that pays $500,000? Do you sincerely believe that all that money is not given on a quid pro quo basis? Perhaps the greatest judicial mistake in history was Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad in the 1880's. The US Supreme Court held that a corporation; an entity that exists solely on paper, has rights equivalent to a free human being. The Founders knew of the danger of corporate power and in the early days of our Republic, limited the charter of companies to insure that they did not create an immortal being. Now, corporations are afforded greater protections than free citizens. They can run roughshod over their workers, their shareholders, and anyone else with only minimal legal restrictions. This power is ultimately detrimental to a free Republic as it insures that profit, not law, rules the land. This is the source of protest.
 
Solinvictus:

Oh yeah! You're referring, of course, to the Roscoe Conkling interpretation of the 14th amendment. I never could, nor could Adam Smith, understand why a corporation, a creature of the state, a legal fiction , should be entitled to enjoy the natural rights of a natural person!
 
El Presidente

That is an allusion to the increasing tendency of our Republic to imitate a 3rd world banana republic with a diminishing rule of law and an increasing militarization of civil police who are used to impose the will of the regime.
 
While i cant comment on the specifics of miami i because i wasnt there, i CAN comment on how the national media tends to spin stories of this nature. I was at the WTO riots in seattle. Witnessed them first hand in fact. And let me tell you the national media ALWAYS comes out on the side of the "innocent protesters". There WAS footage of persons breaking into stores, damaging property, and commiting assaults. It was seen on local coverage plenty. Did any of that footage find its way to CNN? Nope. But, they did manage to find a 5 second clip of a cop pushing some guy with a mask to the ground. No explanation of what happened before or after accompanied the clip so the viewer was left to make their own conclusions strongly influenced by the commentary of the reporter.
 
Without exception, media outlets portray anti-globalization protestors in the most negative way possible and throughout the print media, the mention of activists evokes an immediate invective against the individuals and their views.

Well, I guess I disagree also. I'm always careful to point out that the "loyal opposition" was just as cruel to President Clinton as President Bush, but the media is the one exception.

Back in Clinton's day, Battle of Seattle and all that, the press did treat the anti-global lefists as negative.

However, once the WOT terror started, and the leftists at these protests naturally incorporated anti-war, anti-Bush sentiments into the demonstrations, they became "housewives and teachers, grandparents and carpenters, a slice of middle America". Before the WOT, they were portrayed as a bunch of scruffy students waving giant puppets.
 
Protesters: Video captured civil rights abuses during FTAA talks

CORALIE CARLSON
Associated Press


MIAMI - Protesters showed videotape Wednesday of last week's trade talks in which police in riot gear trampled a protester, shot rubber bullets at an attorney who had her back turned and chased away a demonstrator who had silently kneeled before them in prayer.

The footage was taped by the Independent Media Center, which had about 30 journalists with video cameras at the Free Trade Area of the Americas meeting and protests, said Sara Kendall, one of the journalists. She said four of their broadcast-quality video cameras were confiscated or broken.

The protests turned sporadically violent in the final days of the talks. Some of the thousands of demonstrators threw objects and fired slingshots at officers; police hit protesters with batons, zapped them with stun guns and dispersed them with gas and sprays.

The video, which Kendall said was edited from footage from about six cameras, was played at a press conference Wednesday in downtown Miami but was not immediately released to the public.

The footage showed a young man by himself on his knees with his hands folded in prayer in front of a line of riot police.

Several police ran out of the line, pushed him with their riot shields and he fled to the sound of gun shots. Police shot rubber bullets and bean bags during the sometimes violent demonstrations.

The video also showed a woman in a dress suit and red blazer holding a poster and standing in front of the demonstrators She identified herself to police as an attorney and said she was unarmed.

When she turned her back to the police, she was shot in the back of the leg with a rubber bullet. Another time, as police opened fire on the protesters, she huddled beneath her sign for protection, but was still hit in the face.

In another scene, police were moving forward in a line when a protester fell in front of them. His friend unsuccessfully tried to help him up as the police walked over him.

The rest of the video depicted protesters with bloody faces, police spraying pepper spray or tear gas at demonstrators, and scuffles between police and protesters.

Miami police did not return several calls Wednesday afternoon seeking comment.

However, in a letter to the AFL-CIO released Wednesday, Police Chief John Timoney said his department will review the FTAA security operation and produce a public report. Timoney also defended the police action, saying police placed primary emphasis on avoiding the use of force.

"I very much regret every occasion when police have to resort to force to overcome a violent attack," he said in the letter.

The AFL-CIO and other civil rights groups have said police abused demonstrators during last week's trade talks, arrested them without cause and denied them restrooms, water and phones.

Amnesty International and demonstrator's groups called Wednesday for a full and independent into police practices during the trade talks.

A coalition called Save Our Civil Liberties demanded that Timoney, Miami-Dade Police Chief Carlos Alvarez, Miami Mayor Manny Diaz and Miami-Dade Mayor Alex Penelas be removed from their offices and held criminally responsible. The group also demanded that all charges against all demonstrators be dropped.

Protesters, journalists and a volunteer medic told how they were arrested or beaten or both.

"This was a paramilitary assault," said Naomi Archer, a spokeswoman for South Floridians for Fair Trade and Global Justice. "There has to be some accountability."
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/7358653.htm
 
"Protestors"

There's one set of photographs that were briefly on Yahoo showing a woman kneeling with prayer beads in front of a shield wall of cops. In the next pictures, she is holding her bloody head as she was obviously wounded. This is America and this is what happens if you challenge corporate power.
 
There's one set of photographs that were briefly on Yahoo showing a woman kneeling with prayer beads in front of a shield wall of cops. In the next pictures, she is holding her bloody head as she was obviously wounded. This is America and this is what happens if you challenge corporate power.
A plus B, thus Z... :confused:
 
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