Police in Norfolk, Va illegally arrest gun owner

[VARifleman]

Chet, welcome to THR. I'm also a VCDL member and the meeting in Northern VA after this went out was two to three times larger than normal. In part probably because Ron Paul's CoS was there to speak, but there was also a long discussion/Q&A about your situation. PM me if you need a donation toward your legal expenses, or if I should just make a nice donation to the VCDL.

In looking through this thread there seems to be some confusion about the situation. His charges were dropped and gun returned before any of the alerts went out. The second was not initially mentioned, but in this later update sent out on the 19th at around 4 PM:

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3. More on Chet vs Norfolk
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A couple of notes on Chet Szymecki's arrest in Norfolk:

Chet did get his gun back on the day that the charges were dropped in court. However, the PD would not release the gun to him unless he supplied his Social Security Number yet again.

Actually the PD didn't even want to do it then, but someone who knew what the deal was with Chet got that little problem fixed.

The police did refuse to give Chet back his confiscated ammunition, basically stealing it as far as I am concerned. There is Stalin smiling again at government bullies. :-(

Chet's wife will be suing Norfolk, too. Wahooo!

 

[rocinante]

in the article Chet told the officer his pistol was not a firearm? Was it a curio or black powder or something?

 

[tmajors]

in the article Chet told the officer his pistol was not a firearm?

Legal speaking the term 'firearm' actually has to be defined. This is why there is the section of a law that says something like "a firearm is described as..." and this various classes of guns and weapons. I have yet to see one that says "something that shoots any form of projectile through controlled gunpowder explosion" or any kind of real definition like that. This is why in some areas a crossbow is considered a firearm, because they are listed in the definition.

I'm not familiar with the Virginia statutes but I'm thinking this particular one lists long rifles, carbines, and shotguns as exempt from open carry but not pistols. Idaho is funky the other way. We need a permit to conceal a pistol, but not for a rifle (yes if you can shove a rifle down your pants you don't need a CCW for it in Idaho).

That's my take without actually researching the VA laws and statutes.

 

[VARifleman]

rocinante, this is the pertinant Virginia statute he was talking about:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-287.4

The title states "carrying of loaded firearms in public areas prohibited" but goes on to describe them as a semi-auto rifle or pistol with >20 rounds or that has a threaded barrel for a suppressor or folding stock, or a shotgun with >7 rounds. The section doesn't apply to several groups, including those that hold a valid CCW.

 

[tmajors]

semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock

This is the problem with legal definitions that I was mentioning without looking. They got the explosion part right, but then they said greater then 20 rounds of ammo.

So if it holds less then 20 rounds, won't accept a factory silencer or folding stock it is not considered a firearm under this statute.

 

[VARifleman]

Correct, you also posted between the time I started posting and looking up the statute, also I set the record strait about it since mine showed the actual definition as it doesn't do what you thought it might have.

 

[tmajors]

Yea I had to go by what I knew from other firearms statutes I had seen. Soon as you posted though it took me all of about 5 seconds to read it and see what the issue was.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

This is the problem with legal definitions that I was mentioning without looking. They got the explosion part right, but then they said greater then 20 rounds of ammo.

They didn't even get that right. Modern smokeless powders do not "explode," they burn rapidly. That's why smokeless gunpowder is classified by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association) as a propellant rather than as an explosive.

 

[longwatch]

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=128887&ran=175683
Norfolk and visitor with a holstered .45 are tangled in a Catch-22

By MATTHEW ROY, The Virginian-Pilot
© July 22, 2007

NORFOLK

Chester Szymecki Jr. was waiting for some music to start at Harborfest when a sheriff's deputy approached.

It was a warm June afternoon, and thousands of people wandered on and off the tall ships moored around Town Point Park. Szymecki had come from Yorktown with his wife, their three children and two children from their neighborhood.

Szymecki had brought along something else, too - a .45-caliber handgun in a holster on his belt.

The deputy asked Szymecki whether he was a police officer. He said no. And then, he said, uniformed city police began closing in. They gave him a choice, he said: Leave the event or face arrest. When he tried to say that there must be a mistake, he was disarmed and led away, handcuffed, he recalled.

Szymecki was charged with violating a local ordinance that the City Council had passed in May, which set up rules to govern Harborfest. Among them was a provision banning handguns and other weapons.

There's just one problem: A few years ago, the General Assembly barred localities from enforcing laws governing the carrying of firearms. That meant state law prevailed. And in Virginia, "open carry" is legal.

Localities today generally do not have the authority to restrict guns, said Mark Flynn, director of legal services for the Virginia Municipal League. A state law last amended in 2004 says localities cannot adopt or enforce laws regarding the purchase, carrying, possession, storage, or sale of firearms.

Szymecki was given a summons and released. When he showed up for court June 22, the case was withdrawn at the request of an assistant city attorney.

The case has enraged the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a gun rights group that has successfully challenged local gun restrictions around the commonwealth. Szymecki is a member. In the past the group has protested Norfolk's attempts to prevent the carrying of weapons in city parks.

Philip Van Cleave, the president of the league, says members plan to crowd the City Council chambers in protest at a future date.

The ordinance, he said, was "a huge mistake."

City Attorney Bernard Pishko said the city is not attempting to challenge the state law by imposing restrictions on handguns.

Pishko described the gun ban in the Harborfest ordinance as an oversight, a "housekeeping" issue. "This is one that we missed," he said. An ordinance governing Afr'Am Fest in May contained the same restrictions on weapons. Both ordinances were in effect only for the few days the events ran.

Pishko said his office has since advised police that "the only gun laws in effect for Norfolk are those in effect for Virginia."

Szymecki said the incident has changed the way he views the police. He said he plans to file a lawsuit and have a "neutral court" decide whether police violated his rights.

Matthew Roy, (757) 446-2540, [email protected]

 

[Deanimator]

The ordinance, he said, was "a huge mistake."

City Attorney Bernard Pishko said the city is not attempting to challenge the state law by imposing restrictions on handguns.

City of Norfolk to the cops who abused the victim:

"Have you ever wondered what the underside of a bus looked like?"

Sounds like Norfolk is doing its stretching exercises immediately prior to throwing those cops under the bus.

I'm thinking the relationship between the city and the police union is about to become one of an adversarial nature...

 

[BB62]

Yes, BUT....

As another person wrote on opencarry.org:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/3634-1.html

"Mr. Pishko proceeded to tell me that the public streets for the event were considered private property and thus guns could be banned. I told him that the "Festevents" organization that was running the festival was nothing but an arm of the City and could NOT ban guns. I also said that if the private property part were true, why had Chet not been arrested for trespass, but was instead charged under a City ordinance?

Mr. Pishko said I wasn't a lawyer and didn't know what I was talking about. He suggested that he could drop the charges against Chet, but said that perhaps this issue should be settled in court. Mr. Pishko said he was comfortable that the City would win."

Mr. Pishko is not as "uninformed" as he would have the newspaper folks believe. Oversight my @$$.

 

[Risasi]

I don't know why I keep reading these things, they incense me to the point of thinking of very violent things to do to those that abuse their authority.


[EDIT] Okay, the burning rage is gone. But there should be some sort of retribution when this sort of thing happens. Something like in the old days, when they used to take disorderly fellows to the public square and publicly shame them by putting them in stocks, and extreme cases, the pillory. For a violation of Constitutional rights this form of corporal punishment should be reinstituted.

It would be cheap, over after a few hours, and might restore such an arrogant fellow to a proper humility in carrying out his public service.


P.S. Assuming these officers are found guilty of illegally denying our newfound member his rights.

 

[longwatch]

FYI That was written by Philip Van Cleave the President of VCDL

 

[Tim Burke]

Mr. Pishko is not as "uninformed" as he would have the newspaper folks believed. Oversight my @$$.

All the more reason to believe that Deanimator's interpretation is correct.

 

[El Tejon]

Go get them, Virginians! You know what to do!

Make the city pay for its mistake. Defund the police and give the money to the VCDL!

 

[JimmyN]

So if it holds less then 20 rounds, won't accept a factory silencer or folding stock it is not considered a firearm under this statute.

No, what that section says is that if it meets those criteria you can't carry it loaded.
So you can not open carry a GLOCK 19 with a 33 round magazine in it. You are limited to 20 rounds. You can not carry it loaded if the barrel is threaded, etc. But if you have a CHP then those restrictions do not apply.

 

[Kevin108]

The Va Pilot ran an article today. Here's a scan.



I will be there with my fellow VCDL members to pack the house when the time comes.

 

[glocktoberfest]

It would be better if you didn't attempt to back pedal to fit your agenda

JOAB , I'm not the one with the adgenda ( open carry issue ) here , my only point was , refuse a cops order to leave / vacate and your going for a ride with the blue lights on . Skateboarding or open carry = apples & oranges . Is it right , no , but that's real life . Agreed ? And if you want to exercise your right's , and push the enlovope , you might have to pay ( doing time ) before you get paid ( cash / law suit / change laws ) . That's all my "agenda"/ point is . What exactally do you think my "agenda" is anyway ? The one thing I really didn't understand was why the guy was open carring when he had a CCW ????? Was he trying to get arrested ? I don't know . Only he does and I'm not passing judgment . That being said , I really don't think our views are that far off on this subject .

 

[30 cal slob]

road trip. open carry dinner in norfolk?

 

[joab]

First I have to try to figure out what exactly you are trying to say

Skateboarding and open carry have absolutely nothing to do with each other

The is no constitutional right to skate
Skating on public property has had (accepted) ordinances against it in almost every municipality I have ever lived in, because it damages property and causes a real danger to bystanders

If you were talking about skateboarding on property other than his (you did not specify) then your kid is guilty of trespass, a crime.
If the officer gives him the option of moving along instead of arrest he should say thank you and move along

If he is skateboarding on his own property (you did not specify) and is told to stop and you as his father advise him to comply then you are in the wrong

If you think that a cop telling a kid to stop doing an illegal activity is even remotely comparable to a cop telling a citizen to stop doing a legal activity protected under state constitution then we are light years away on this

If you think that accusing me of twisting to fit my agenda when your completely flawed analogy falls flat makes you anything but a twisty boy yourself then we are also way apart on that issue

Your answer is typical of those that think others should follow their lead,
You project your own inadequacies onto others

Your "question" has been answered simply and repeatedly
It's a matter of preference, nothing more need be said

 

[glocktoberfest]

First I have to try to figure out what exactly you are trying to say

my only point was , refuse a cops order to leave / vacate and your going for a ride with the blue lights on . Agree ?

Yes or No .

 

[glocktoberfest]

Your answer is typical of those that think others should follow their lead,
You project your own inadequacies onto others

my inadequacies ? follow my lead ? please explain ................

 

[DKSuddeth]

my only point was , refuse a cops order to leave / vacate and your going for a ride with the blue lights on . Agree ?

Yes or No .

let us tread over the grounds of what is and what isn't a 'lawful' order now.

does a LEO have the authority to order you off your own property? what about the public sidewalk? A governmnet building?

 

[Deanimator]

my only point was , refuse a cops order to leave / vacate and your going for a ride with the blue lights on . Agree ?

My only point is that if you're a cop and act outside of the scope of your duties by cruelly and arrogantly enforcing a facially invalid law, you'll fall on your sword for a city which really doesn't care what happens to you. Only instead of a sharp steel sword, it'll be a bamboo sword, like in the classic Japanese film, "Hara Kiri". You'll actually have to slam yourself onto the sword repeatedly. The whole thing's going to be ugly, messy, and EXTREMELY painful.

The cops in this case had their fun, brutalizing a veteran, ignoring his health problems. Now it's time for him and the VCDL to have THEIR fun. I hope the cops' kids are smart and have an interest in the military. ROTC scholarships are the only way THEY will ever see college. The War on Terror will be LONG over before their parents finish paying off the judgements against them...

 

[joab]

my only point was , refuse a cops order to leave / vacate and your going for a ride with the blue lights on . Agree ?

That is not the point you were making
You were equating refusing a lawful order to cease an unlawful act with the unlawful order to cease a lawful act
And then to cover for your faulty analogy you accuse me of twisting to fit an agenda

If taking that ride scares you then by all means surrender your principles, but don't look down on those that do not.
It's a matter of preference

my inadequacies ? follow my lead ? please explain ................

Simple anything that you would not do should not be done or is not intelligent to do
Your initial question supports that, you incessant repeating of the question once adequately answered confirms it

you would not freely exercise your rights so anyone that does is just trying to get attention or get arrested

And by the way
Neither party in the two stories being discussed right now took that blue light ride, and can look in the mirror knowing that they stood up for what was right and legal