Police officer: Wisconsin doesn't need law allowing its residents to carry

[Capt. Charlie]

Atticus wrote:

The FOP and State police fought against CC in Ohio...as I'm sure they will in Wisconsin. That's not cop bashing just a statement of fact.

No sir, we (FOP), and the Buckeye State Sheriff's Association did NOT oppose concealed carry. To the contrary, the majority of Ohio FOP members gave the measure strong support.

http://keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=372

Ohioans For Concealed Carry, Inc. is a non-profit educational and activist membership organization. They've collected over 25,000 signatures from Ohioans, members of law enforcement, FOP lodges, police unions and the Buckeye State Sheriff's Association in support of passing right to carry legislation such as House Bill 165, debunking claims by Governor Taft of lacking law enforcement support. A wealth of information can be found at their website, http://www.OhioCCW.org.

Opposing the bill were the Ohio Highway Patrol (which is not a state police, by the way), and the International Assoc. of Chiefs of Police. I don't know why the OHP was against it, but I can tell you something about the IACP. The IACP is made up of chiefs, administrators, and bureaucrats, most of which are not, and never were, first responders. They have absolutely no conception of the reality of the streets, and IACP statements are frequently in conflict with the thinking of mainstream, line officers. Those line officers, including my officers and me, have been strongly in support of CC for citizens long before this bill was passed. In fact, the bill was on shaky legs even with Ohio's citizenry, and without the support of the FOP and BSSA, it most likely would NOT have passed.

So, the bottom line is, you have the right to concealed carry in Ohio BECAUSE of the FOP and BSSA, and not in spite of them. So before you post that crap, do a little research, think twice, and post once.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Capt Charlie, last year we also had the support of the Wisconsin chapter of the Fraternal Order of Police (as well as the WI chapter of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America, and the Milwaukee Police Association).

I think the FOP gets a bad rap because of the national leadership's support of the 1994 AW ban.

 

[Sheldon J]

12 responces to date

So far out of 12 responces all are in favor of CPL to see them go here http://www.sheboygan-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/200511230500/SHE0601/511230307

 

[jsalcedo]

Those responses are great. I'm wondering if most of those came from THR members.

 

[Jeff22]

CCW in Wisconsin -- continued

Another issue that enters into this debate is that most cops are pretty ignorant about firearms and firearms training and tactics and so forth, and they don't KNOW they're ignorant . . . of course, the first step on the path to wisdom is knowing what you don't know, but most people never get that far.

(and I'm saying this having been a cop since 1981 and a firearms instructor since 1982).

Most cops and most police firearms instructors seem to be totally unaware of the outside vendors providing firearms training, and all they know about are those few courses hosted by their PD or available from the State Police Academy or whatever. (They may be aware of H&Ks Training Division and the Smith & Wesson Academy because both of those institutions focus a lot of their training effort toward the police market) They don't know about Gunsite or Thunder Ranch or Blackwater or the various national instructors that travel like John Farnam or Mas Ayoob or Jeff Gonzales or Louis Awerbuck, etc. AND THEY DON'T KNOW THEY DON'T KNOW!!

(I've taken a lot of classes from John Farnam at Defense Training International and Mas Ayoob at the Lethal Force Institute -- the majority of their classes are aimed toward the defensive use of firearms by the private citizen and NOT by the police or military. Most cops have no concept that stuff is even out there, so they can't speak intelligently about any of the issues surrounding CCW because they don't understand, AND THEY DON'T KNOW THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND!)

Being a cop or a soldier doesn't necessarily mean that you know anything -- it just means that your duties and experiences may have offered you the oppertunity to know something or to learn something, IF YOU PAID ATTENTION.

And the Wisconsin Trooper's Association just announced (25 Nov)that they SUPPORT the CCW bill in Wisconsin PROVIDED there is an LE only way to query the CCW permit holder list based on vehicle registration, so that they don't get surprised when making a traffic stop. (they're holding a press conference at the Capitol on the 30th of November to announce this) I think this is a legitimate concern and (probably) a legitimate solution to the problem. Now I think DOJ will need to develop a standardized training module on how police should interact with a citizen who has a CCW permit, and we should be in pretty good shape . . .not that the issue is all that complicated, but there should be training and everybody should be on the same page . . .

 

[Strings]

>not that the issue is all that complicated, but there should be training and everybody should be on the same page . . .<

I'm sure some form of training WILL happen. Question I have is if it will be before the Appleton chief makes good on his threat, or after...

 

[CAnnoneer]

One question:
Does the LEO expressing the anti-CCW opinion happen to carry off-duty?

 

[Jeff22]

CCW in Wisconsin (continued)

In response to the last question about the Racine cop who wrote the letter to the editor against the proposed CCW bill:

I have no idea who he is but I'll bet HE DOES NOT carry off duty. His letter reads like it was written by somebody who didn't understand the issue and didn't have an familiarity with the issue. In my experience near where I work, those few cops who carry off duty on a routine basis SUPPORT CCW for private citizens. It's all the other cops who seldom or mostly NEVER carry concealed off duty (which is probably 85% around here, I should think) who don't support it and don't understand . . .

Lots of people posting on this thread presumed that the guy was arrogant. Which is certainly true. "Uninformed" and "ignorant" can also mascarade as arrogance, depending upon how things are worded . . .

It's totally impossible to make generalizations about the police because policy and procedure can vary so much between agencies in the same county, let alone the same state or state to state. The regulations on what training cops recieve and how much and how often varies so much, it's hard to make blanket generalizations. However, in Wisconsin recruits get 48 hours of firearms training (all handgun) and shoot 1000 rounds. THERE IS NO TRAINING AT THE RECRUIT LEVEL ON CONCEALED CARRY OR HOW TO CARRY OFF DUTY AND HOW TO ACT/REACT. I used to teach firearms in the local regional police academy, and we used to interject about a 45 minute discussion of concealment guns and concealment holsters and how to act off duty and etc. into our block of instruction, even though it was not in the cirriculum and it made the Academy director nervous. We still felt it was necessary to do that. I don't know if that's being done now, as I haven't taught there since the spring of '98. (The use of the 5.56mm rifle has become popular in many agencies in Wisconsin as a supplement/replacement for the 12 gauge shotgun. Because there is a wide variety of long guns in use, DOJ decided to leave the long gun instruction up to the individual agencies and take it out of recruit school).

So anyway, my point is that most cops here don't carry concealed, don't have any training in concealed carry, maybe are discouraged by their agency from carrying, and still presume (because they're a cop?) that they understand the concept and that their opinion has any relevance to anything.

People are entitled to their own opinions and all, but I really wish they would take the time to become INFORMED before developing their opinion.

If CCW in Wisconsin becomes law, it'll work out just like it did everywhere else and evntually be considered a non-issue.

 

[Nicky Santoro]

Police officer: Wisconsin doesn't need law allowing its residents to carry


One opinion. Who voted that meatwhistle the ultimate authority?

 

[jnojr]

And the Wisconsin Trooper's Association just announced (25 Nov)that they SUPPORT the CCW bill in Wisconsin PROVIDED there is an LE only way to query the CCW permit holder list based on vehicle registration, so that they don't get surprised when making a traffic stop. (they're holding a press conference at the Capitol on the 30th of November to announce this) I think this is a legitimate concern and (probably) a legitimate solution to the problem.

What, exactly, would such a query accomplish?

You make a traffic stop and you find out that the person you're stopping has a CCW. Great. So they're less likely to be a problem than any other stop. But there are a bunch of other queries that could be made to guess how a stop is going to go. How about a database that links job stability to car registration? "This guy's been steadily employed for 14 years... he probably isn't gonna be a problem" "This guy got fired from a minimum wage job a week ago... he's probably going to be a problem"

What are they going to do, a hot felony stop on all CCW holders?

 

[Monkeyleg]

"What are they going to do, a hot felony stop on all CCW holders?"

That's exactly what the police chief of Appleton, WI said he would do if this bill becomes law.

As the bill is written now, an officer would have to run the plates to get the name of the registered owner, and then run that name through a separate database to find out if that person has a permit.

Problem is, that only tells the officer if the owner of the vehicle has a permit, not the person who's driving. That person could be a relative, a friend, or could even have stolen the car.

This is one of those issues that becomes a non-issue after a state has a year or two of experience with CCW.

 

[antsi]

This is one of those issues that becomes a non-issue after a state has a year or two of experience with CCW.

I hope the "purists" don't work to defeat a WI CCW law because it has a provision for police to look up CCW holders by their tags. In such matters, it is always best to get some kind of CCW law passed, then clean it up later. Right now getting any kind of CCW in WI would be a huge victory.

 

[Flyboy]

I agree that retired law enforcement professionals should be permitted to carry a concealed firearm

Somebody needs to refer Mr. "I'm the only one professional enough" to this thread.

 

[Monkeyleg]

antsi, the Trooper's Association is asking for this provision. I'd wait to see what Senator Zien has to say before concluding that the WTA is going to get what they want.