Police Patrol Rifle Programs

[Thorn001]

This is directed primarily to LEOs, but anyone with suggestions is welcome to speak up.

I am trying to get a patrol rifle program started in my department. I know there are many LEOs here. Has anyone been involved with the start up of a program or can get me information on starting one up? Our department has no program for patrol officers to have access to rifles, only SWAT has that access. In the past year alone I have been involved in 2 calls where suspects were beyond the range where we train with handguns and due to the environment and for civilian casualty issues, shotguns were a bad idea. In one instance the armed suspect was walking around gas pumps and several times started walking towards the glass doors of the crowded convenience store. Our SWAT team has at least a 45 minute response time on call outs and never even got close.

I am looking for information on costs and options for starting a program. Arguments for and against patrol rifles. Any statistics for the program. Sources of weapons, ammunition, and training.

Either post responses here or email me at [email protected]

Thanks

 

[Hanzo581]

After seeing the North Hollywood bank robbery footage how could any police force not give at least some of thier officers access to long guns? :banghead:

 

[Frog48]

After seeing the North Hollywood bank robbery footage how could any police force not give at least some of thier officers access to long guns?

I have reservations about issuing rifles to patrol officers, because too many are Rambo/SWAT wannabes. If you've ever been to a gunshow, you know what I mean. Every off-duty officer in town is at the show wearing BDU pants and a black t-shirt with "POLICE" in huge white letters, and their badge on a chain around their neck. And walking around holding hands with their trailer-park girlfriend.

I do think that giving them to *some* officers would be ok, just not everybody.

 

[MechAg94]

Would something as simple as a 30-30 lever gun work for most situations? It would be cheaper yet still gives accurate shots at normal ranges. I am not sure what the overpenetration might be compared to .223.

 

[aguyindallas]

Grant48:

Man, I am not sure what gun shows you go to, but I certainly havent seen any of what you are talking about. I have quite a few LEO friends myself and have not seen any of them with this mall ninja dress style you are talking to about either.

Interesting....I suppose.

At any rate, why not have better trained LEO's and better equipped LEO's? I cant think of one reason why not myself.

 

[Pilgrim]

I do think that giving them to *some* officers would be ok, just not everybody.

I guess this line of thinking can be applied to handguns too.

Pilgrim

 

[Coronach]

We just started ours, but I am a mere bystander, not a policymaker. I can, however, tell you what we did and answer any questions I can.

A few salient points:

1. You can get rifles from Uncle Sam. This will save your PD money. The brass always likes that. There is not a blessed thing wrong with the M16A1s they are handing out.

2. Have selection criteria for the riflemen. Our PD went with self selection (volunteers), and from them they selected people with military experience with the M16 as the first batch. Where they'll go from there I do not know. But for the love of God don't let mere seniority or cronyism be the deciding criterion.

3. Budget for training. This will probably be the hardest selling point for the pencilnecks. Your shooters need to shoot. A lot. They need to do team training. A lot of it. Bullets cost money. Time spent in inservice training costs money. The beancounters will always bellyache when they get the bill, but they seem to have no problems paying out the wrongful death/excessive force lawsuits if you kill someone through lack of training. Comments upon the idiocy of this outlook would be moot: you're preaching to the choir.

4. KISS. You don't need an ubertactical ninja rifle. If you go the AR/M16 route, you can get the basic gun and add gear later if you want. But for God's sake get the rifles first before you dress them up. Otherwise you'll end up with a mere handful of tactical tommy toys and a bunch of potential riflemen responding to gun runs with pistols.

5. If you really want to maximize the number of rifles on the street at low cost, and you have a chain of command and/or city council with some sense (and if so, you're blessed with riches beyond dreams of avarice), consider the following. Set up criteria for the rifle (pick caliber, make, model, however limited they want to make it), and allow officers to purchase rifles, have them inspected by your ordnance staff, pass the certification course and whatever other criteria you have, and hit the street. You'll get as many riflemen as you want at minimal cost. However, for some reason city councilmen and people with brass on their epaulets get twitchy when ideas like this are suggested (my personal theory is that it makes too much sense, so the proposal must be denied).

6. If you get M16s, disable the fun switch. It's more of a liability than an asset in general patrol use.

7. If you work for a large department with many different units, DO NOT let intradepartmental rivalries ruin the program. Over here, as soon as word got out that Patrol was getting some rifles, specialized (non-patrol) units came out of the woodwork with some fanciful notions about why they "needed" the rifles more than patrol. Don't be afraid to tell people who need to be told off to ****. It helps if you have a higher-up on your side, of course.

8. Explain to city council that sooner or later someone will have a questionable shoot. It will happen. You'll train to avoid it, you'll have policies to minimize it, but it is going to happen. Get them to tell you, in plain english, that they will not freak out when it happens. Common sense will tell you that it makes no difference if a guy gets killed with a city-issued .38spl revolver or a city-issued AR-15, but watch what happens the first time something goes wrong. If it is an election year, the long knives might come out. Wouldn't be the first time a politician made political hay out of a LE mishap.

9. Rifles should be issued to individuals, not units or cruisers. You ever look at the common gear stored in the trunk of a cruiser? You want your precision rifle treated that way? I sure don't. And all it takes is one numbskull on the previos shift fiddling with "the little knobby thing" on the rear sight to put a bullet in the wrong person. Oops.

10. Talk to Jeff White.

Mike

 

[Jeff White]

It sure can. I have a list of civilians who shouldn't have access to guns, long or handguns or sharp objects for that matter....Might even be adding to it soon....

Jeff

 

[Steve in PA]

I think Coronach pretty much nailed it.

Every vehicle should have a patrol rifle in it. If this is not feasible, then at least the shift supervisor who is on the road, not assigned to the station should have one.

I've been with my current dept for 9 years and we have both rifles and shotguns in our vehicles. Some depts only have one or the other and some keep what they have locked up in an office at the station. A fat lot of good thats going to do!!!

I just finished qualifying my dept with the rifles, along with several officers from a neighboring dept.

 

[SoCalShooter]

I agree with Hanzo on this one how can your police force not be armed with assault rifles? Where do you live and Police at?

Also whats the standard range that you guys practice with your pistols? Cause you may want to think about increasing that range.

 

[Jeff White]

Thorn,
There are ways to get into the program fairly economically. M16A1s andM14s are available to your agency free of charge through DOD's 1033 Program. If your department isn't already in the program you should look into it. You won't be able to get one for every officer, but you can normally get enough for about 1/3 of the officers you have, which should put one in every squad car. The paperwork is pretty straightforward.

Once you get the rifles you are going to have to work out things like how to carry them, slings, spare magazines and where to carry them.

There will also be be training and policy issues. It's not quite as simple as getting the rifles and putting one in each squad car. The National Tactical Officers Association has some good information on policies and training.

Jeff

 

[soutex50]

As mentioned before, our department issues rifles to those who have shown ability/responsibility above and beyond the annual qualifications for it.

The military surplus is a good deal too.
Shift supervisor with long guns? second that too.

One other thing, most vendors will take your confiscated inventory as credit towards the purchase of rifles....just make sure you clear it through your local DA. Non-suit cases, abandoned, untagged, etc.......

 

[JR719]

Thorn,

There have been many good suggestions on various ways to try to accomplish patrol rifles. I can only speak for how it happened for our dept.
After North Hollywood, and a couple of other active shooters, our dept started looking at rifles. I am in a very, VERY, conservative area. If our Officers want to carry a patrol rifle, we have to purchase one. I don't have the policy in front of me, but here is the jist.

The Officer buys, with or without letterhead.
Must be .223.
AR family, Mini 14, or HK.
55 to 65 grain hollow point or soft point.
At least 20 rd no more than 30 rd mags.
Must have sling, either regular or 3 point.
Optics... magnification no more than 4X (I think) can have illuminated red dot.
No "Exotic" sights. Whatever admin deems exotic I would imagine, who knows
Must complete rifle training with at least an 80 firing a 20 round course with iron sights only. (I believe 80, may be 70?).
Must qual every year.

We were lucky, the Chief was very much for the rifles so there was NO resistance. If you would like, I can dig out the policy and give it to you word for word, mail or fax to you. Our FOP also helped get the police pushed thru. I was lucky, I was in the first rifle class and they did not hold another for about a year and a half.
There are very justifiable reasons to have a patrol rifle. I don't know how many folks have been taken down here that have had AK's or SKS's etc. A scatterblaster is not much against one of those at any range.
My best advise for wording to sell the issue, contact North Hollywood CA. and Colombine CO. PD's. You'll get all the wording you'll ever need. I would suggest constant training, quals, and in groups. We just have to qual once a year. For the lazy, it is great. Most of us shoot all the time, so quals are not a prob., but working together is a little confusing. Active shooter training helps.
If you would like the policy, let me know.

JR

 

[Frog48]

have not seen any of them with this mall ninja dress style you are talking to about either.

At any rate, why not have better trained LEO's and better equipped LEO's? I cant think of one reason why not myself.

I guess you've never been to the Saxet shows in San Antonio, by the airport. Its great place to do some people-watching. In addition to the mall-ninjas, the gangbanger/rap culture clowns are entertaining to see, because you know they're up to no good.

On the other point, I'm all for better trained LEO's. But I think in order to achieve that, we need to recruit better people. With todays low TCLEOSE standards, alot of unsavory characters are recruited.

What absolutely blows my mind is that alot of college graduates are turned down in favor of people that barely meet the TCLEOSE education standards. I'm a student at TCU, and many of my friends are Criminal Justice majors. Alot have been told that they're "overqualified" by local police departments. I speculate that there are a couple of reasons for this... mainly that the senior officers are intimidated by recruits possessing a higher education than themselves, and worried that these new "college boys" will climb the promotion ladder faster, passing them by. Its no secret that blue-collar folks view college grads with disdain. Further, the departments fear that they'll have to increase salaries, if college grads are employed on a large scale.

Luckily for my friends, state and federal agencies have been on hiring sprees the past few years, and CJ majors have little problem finding these type jobs straight out of college.

Sorry if I come across as a cop-hater.

 

[nemoaz]

>> Rifles should be issued to individuals, not units or cruisers.

I agree this is desirable but not neccessary. I work with an agency that issues ARs. Most of us have personally assigned weapons, but some are pool. Pool works ok if you use an EOS. No issues with respect to sighting in. You could easily have just enough ARs to cover the shift without going to the expense of ordering one for each officer.

We also have access to 14" shotguns, which I never carry. I have very little use for a shotgun. In tight quarters, the pattern is too tight and you have no advantage over a carbine. People who think it's point and blast inside a building have never patterned a shotty. At range, you risk injuries to others and will have difficulty in hostage situations. With OO buck, those 8 pellets get spread out pretty quickly. Slugs may work, but a carbine with 30 shots beats 5 slugs any day of the week. I assume you also have access to shotguns. It should be easy to show the Chief the inadequacies of a shotty compared to a carbine. Assure him that hp's will alleviate most overpenetration concerns or perhaps go to a pistol caliber. (But ensure that officers are authorized to use ammo with penetration capability when the tactical situation merits it). Assure him that there is actually less liability with accurately placed carbine fire than from relatively less accurate fire from a 3.5-4 inch pistol. Oh yeah, tell him there's less EEO liability because the women can shoot them better than a shotgun.

If there would be political issues with regard to walking around with a black rifle, a mini 14, pistol caliber carbine, or even a lever gun. In fact, I don't know how the shotty became so widely accepted. I'd rather have a 30/30 or pistol caliber lever carbine than a shotgun any day of the week.

>>Have selection criteria for the riflemen. Our PD went with self selection (volunteers), and from them they selected people with military experience with the M16 as the first batch.

Everyone must qualify with my department. It's just part of the job. Besides, anyone who can fire a pistol well enough to qualify should have no difficulty mastering a rifle. If the SHTF, the responding units have carbines in their vehicles and everyone in the station grabs the rest of the carbines and respond. I wouldn't want only a few being trained. What if the riflemen are offduty or the ones needing backup?

 

[BsChoy]

WHAT!

"I have reservations about issuing rifles to patrol officers, because too many are Rambo/SWAT wannabes. If you've ever been to a gunshow, you know what I mean. Every off-duty officer in town is at the show wearing BDU pants and a black t-shirt with "POLICE" in huge white letters, and their badge on a chain around their neck. And walking around holding hands with their trailer-park girlfriend."

Grant48, I have been to countless gun shows and have NEVER seen such a sight. Being a LEO I take offense to this and question the validity of your post. I'm sure if you id'd half of these people you claim to see they would not be police but some moron who thinks this imparts some special priviledge. I work in a 27 man department and we field 4 M4's each shift. The state department of criminal justice services (NY's top LE agency) mandates a full 5 day patrol rifle course before you may carry it. Yes it is not that much time but training is money and not easy to do in a PD without much planning.

 

[Wes Janson]

The Book of the AR-15 has a section in it dedicated to this very subject. If I recall correctly, he even has some form letters written up to demonstrate what to tell the person in charge of policy.

 

[smince]

Would something as simple as a 30-30 lever gun work for most situations? It would be cheaper yet still gives accurate shots at normal ranges.

Nothing at all wrong with the lever gun. Except most everyone thinks they have to have 30 round mags, black synthetic and holo-sights.

Nice if you can afford them. But if you have to buy your own, sometimes other budget concerns get in the way (same with some Departments, evidently).

 

[Coronach]

Nothing at all wrong with the lever gun. Except most everyone thinks they have to have 30 round mags, black synthetic and holo-sights.

Nothing at all wrong with lever guns, except for the fact that DOD and DHS are giving away M16s to PDs. If I had a choice of buying leverguns or getting a crate of M16s gratis, well, it would be one time that I agreed with the beancounters.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

Rifles should be issued to individuals, not units or cruisers.

I agree this is desirable but not neccessary. I work with an agency that issues ARs. Most of us have personally assigned weapons, but some are pool. Pool works ok if you use an EOS. No issues with respect to sighting in. You could easily have just enough ARs to cover the shift without going to the expense of ordering one for each officer.

Yeah, you can work around it, but individual weapons are better for everything except the bottom line. I think by the time you add all of the procedures, policies and precations necessary to make pool weapons a viable alternative, you're probably better off just going with individual issue. But I'll admit that's a SWAG.

Mike