Police requirements to initiate a stop?

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Harvster

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Here is the hypothetical situation though it has actually happened in many places:

In a state where it is legal to carry openly or concealed with a permit, a person catches a glimpse of me with my gun and calls 911. Can the police initiate a stop based on that even though no known crime has or is about to occur? It is my general understanding that more would be needed. Or can they stop to check to see if I have a CCW permit?
 
No...

The short answer is "NO". Fortunately the USSC has already decided this issue, see Florida vs. J.L. IANAL, and all the usual disclaimers, but it states explicitly that there is no "gun exception" to the rules established by Terry vs. Ohio. Essentially an officer would have to establish reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

I.C.
 
From what I can tell from the calls I recieve and dispatch that it depends on what the caller states, if the caller states that the person with the weapon is brandishing it or using it in a unlawful manner then law enforcement will be sent out, if the person that calls 911 simply states that the person is walking around with a holstered handgun then typicaly we will notify the on duty patrol supervisor and it will be there discretion, but they will usually send some one to check it out. I do not know what the law is on this however, I am jsut stating my observations
 
Arkansas isn't an open carry state, so if someone sees your handgun and you aren't an LEO, you have committed a misdemeanor. Given the Heller case, I believe open carry will eventually become accepted everywhere.
 
I hope Standing Wolf is being sarcastic, but that seems to be the reality in many places. The police no longer respond to a ‘man-with-a-gun’ calls when I’m involved, after all, that would be pure harassment and subject them to a lawsuit. Nonetheless, I think if a black man were to carry openly here in Tacoma the police would descend on him like flies on a fresh carcass. Seriously, I’d love to accompany someone of color with my video camera.

Anyway, suspicion, by itself, is not enough to seize a citizen of Washington. IOW, if I was riding a unicycle in a Speedo while glaring at passersby, that would not be sufficient for the police to detain me. Yes, it’s certainly suspicious, and a horrible visual, but there’s no element of a crime. The same is true for open carry. Just because someone thinks it looks suspicious, or a police officer thinks it looks suspicious, there is no crime being committed so the officer could not legally seize (detain) me for doing so. They can initiate a friendly chat, but I can walk away at any time. The important thing is to find out (1) if you are being detained, and (2) for suspicion of what crime the officer is detaining you. If someone told the 911 comm officer that you were waving the gun (brandishing) then you will have to accept the detainment as legal and explain your side of it. That’s why it’s so important to ask.

It is not suspicion.
It is reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime is afoot.

Now, this is how they get you: They can initiate a consensual conversation with you, one you could terminate at any time if you know what your rights are. While chatting with you they can use posture, tone, and their authority to make you believe that you are being detained for a crime that you don’t know about. If you admit to a crime or otherwise give the officer either reasonable articulable suspicion to probable cause, then you will be detained for further investigation or arrested.
 
Define "initiate a stop."

Are you talking about a traffic stop, or mere contact?
 
insidious_calm said:
The short answer is "NO". Fortunately the USSC has already decided this issue, see Florida vs. J.L. IANAL, and all the usual disclaimers, but it states explicitly that there is no "gun exception" to the rules established by Terry vs. Ohio.
Click to expand...

Don't forget about:

United States v. Ubiles 224 F.3d 213 (3d Cir. 2000)

"...The Terry stop in this case was not supported by reasonable suspicion "that criminal activity [was] afoot . . . ." Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30 (1968). Therefore, the stop and subsequent search (an anonymous tip led to the discovery of a firearm) were unjustified because the precondition for a Terry stop was not present in this case."

United States v. Dudley, 854. F. Supp. (S.D. Ind. 1994) "If the stop itself is unlawful, Supreme Court precedent does not authorize the police to search the suspects . . . for weapons, even if the officers reasonably fear for their safety." (sorry no link).

In Georgia, open carry is perfectly legal by firearm license holders, yet in the greater Atlanta area, cops have initiated a Terry stop for a MWAG call on many people with whom I'm acquainted just because their gun is visible. Obviously not because it isn't legal, but because they personally don't approve of it. Usually they demand ID and seize the weapon for a serial number check and generally give the licensee a hard time for as long as they can. Unless some other circumstances are present, which indicates or reasonably suggests illegal activity has, is, or about to happen, this is a clear violation of the Fourth Amendment. Thank goodness we have an organization with strong grass roots support that has begun to take legal action as a safeguard against these abuses taking place in the future.

Am I free to go? Those are the words to use to immediately determine if the interaction with LE is voluntary or if your being officially detained.
 
In Ohio we have to notify police we are carrying a firearm, during any interaction we have with them, either as a pedestrian or a motorist (mainly a motorist). Although I don't believe walking by one on the street, and waving while saying "hello" constitutes an interaction requiring that you also notify him of your status as a pistol-carrying citizen who is presently carrying. On that note, you only need to notify them when you are actually carrying...


Anyway, not that I've ever been stopped by the police (my driving record is flawless), but if I was stopped, or approached, here is how I would handle it...


"Officer as per the requirements of Ohio's revised code, I am informing you that I am a holder of a concealed handgun permit and I presently have the firearm on my person... Here is my driver's license and my concealed license..." -I'd already have these out and ready if it was a traffic stop, if I was on foot and did not already have them out, I'd ask permission to put my hand into my left front pants pocket to get my wallet and get the cards out of my wallet, while informing the officer where the weapon on my person is located, or where the weapons are-

After that, I would ask him, "Am I being charged with anything or am I under arrest?" and contingent upon his saying 'no' in response, I would then reply, "Then I am going to leave, thank you officer, have a nice day..."
 
"reasonable and articulable suspicion" is required for a brief investigative detention.

In essence, there has to be some legitimate reason that the officer can explain for the stop... whether or not he/she explains that reason to you is moot.

You are asking a question that is too vague to be answered with absolute certainty, because of the infinite number of variables that include, but are in no way limited to:

1) Information given by a complainant, if one exists

2) Manner in which you are carrying

3) Location where you are carrying

4) Your overall appearance (this alone wouldn't be a reason, but can be a factor)


In other words the officer who says:

"I received a call from dispatch stating that a complainant had reported a party brandishing a firearm in front of a school. Upon arrival I spotted the subject dressed in gang colors (in an area known for gang activity) carrying a handgun in his left hand"

...would be able to easily explain stopping this person, whereas the officer who says:

"I was patrolling along W. Main St and saw a person walking down the street with a holstered handgun. I contacted this person"

would have a tough time explaining the reasonableness of this stop.


Keep in mind, information given by a complainant (while sometimes false) may greatly influence an officer's initial approach to a subject.

If the complainant merely stated that he/she saw someone walking with a holstered gun, it wouldn't get the same response as a complaint of a party pointing a gun at passing cars (or other such unlawful actions)!
 
Define "initiate a stop."

Are you talking about a traffic stop, or mere contact?
Click to expand...


I was thinking of pedestrian situations, like in a grocery store, nothing vehicular related.

Thanks for the responses, especially those citing case law, just the sort of thing I was looking for.
 
"I was thinking of pedestrian situations, like in a grocery store, nothing vehicular related."

A LEO can walk up to anyone and initiate contact just like anyone else. To take it further a LEO need reasonable suspicion and or probable cause depending on where they want to take it.

So...

"Or can they stop to check to see if I have a CCW permit?"

They can always ask; what happens should you refuse to provide the desired information depends on the applicable laws. In some places you could politely decline to provide it and be on your way, in others you could not. It is important to know which place you are in, for obvious reasons. A prudent course of action would be ot consult a lawyer.
 
mainsail said:
It is not suspicion.
It is reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime is afoot.
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Actually, it's a reasonable suspicion, based on clearly articulable facts, that a crime is being committed, has been committed, or is about to be committed.

Subtle nuances, perhaps, but potentially important some time, somewhere. Might as well get it right.
 
here in NJ an anonymous tip about someone carrying a gun does allow for a stop/contact.

i personally dont see whats wrong with identifying yourself as a CCW carrier. I would smile and send you on your way.

Its when you say "you dont have the right to stop me", walk away and then refuse my questions that arouses police suspiscion. Ive had far to many EDP's (emotionally disturbed persons) do that. they just walk along pretending you dont exist. then lash out.

Its actually common practice in a rough city round my way to ignore the police and walk away when you are in possession of an ILLEGAL firearm. it happens all too often. they think if they ignore us and walk away briskly that we dont notice the giant glock wedged in the pants.
 
Your Question really brings up two points:

1. Can the police search you for a gun?- Yes, if (a) they have reasonable suspicion that some crime is going on. The most common example is someone carrying a TV and pillow case full of jewelry down the street at 3:00am. It is not clear that a crime has been committed but it is suspicious enough the police can briefly stop the guy to find out what is going on. As this applies to guns it depends what the laws are in your state and what exactly you are doing. If you are sitting in your car for an hour in the summer open-carrying with a ski mask on, I don't think there is person in the world that wouldn't want a cop asking wth is going on. (b) you consent or (c) they have probable cause. But probable cause is just heightened RS.

2. Does someone telling the police you have a gun constitute RS?
Again this depends entirely upon the situation. Insidious Calm is correct that an anonymous tip alone cannot create Reasonable Suspicion. FL v. JL. However, this tip can be corroborated by the police observing you doing the things the tipster told them you would do, since this indicates the person really knows you. Also, be aware of the distinction between anonymous tips and non-anonymous calls. If someone calls 911 and leaves their name, or tells a police officer directly then there is a good chance there is reasonable suspicion b/c the person can go to jail for making a false police report if they are lying. And, there is someone that can corroborate that they actually made the tip. Courts are very suspicious of cops saying "my completely reliable anonymous informant told me that there is contraband at X" since it would be possible to just make up the anonymous informant.

Cars are a completely different story since it is impossible to drive without breaking some traffic law. Basically if you drive you are a criminal and can be stopped.

Harvester- if you want to know the case law. Get the Criminal procedure (not law) High Courts or Legalines case summaries. They are the Cliffs notes for Law Students and it will break down every search and seizure case in a page or two.

The new ones are at:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...1_olp_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214921157&sr=8-2

or Send me a PM and I'll send you my old one.
 
Can the police initiate a stop based on that even though no known crime has or is about to occur?
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Yes. it happens every day.

There have even even cases where police have stopped people to award them good driving rewards where the police made the stop specifically because they did not violate the law.

Whether such a stop is legal or constitutional is another matter. Courts have given extremely wide latitude to police in these matters so even when it is not constitutional or legal, your options are basically not real good.

This is not a police problem. It is a politician problem.
 
Sebastian the Ibis said:
However, this tip can be corroborated by the police observing you doing the things the tipster told them you would do, since this indicates the person really knows you.
Click to expand...

Can you expand on this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean to convey. What difference does it make to RAS if the responding officer can corroborate that which the caller indicates a gun carrier is doing, unless the carrier is engaging or has engaged in criminal activity?

Caller: the man with the gun is listening to an IPod.

LE: corroborates a man matching the description of the subject allegedly carrying a gun who is listening to an IPod.

Now what? Carrying a gun is not evidence in itself of a crime. Is there something that I'm missing?
 
Bottom line is, the police can stop you for any reason at any time. Yes, the stop and subsequent search may be illegal, and may cause the dept to get their butts handed to them in court, but some places that doesn't matter.

If a LEO asks you to stop, you absolutely have to or else you can be charged with resisting arrest.

Luckily most the LEOs in my state wont stop you unless you're obviously intoxicated or actually committing a crime. Thank goodness for good LEOs! Other states I have lived in... well I'll keep this THR compliant.
 
Luckily most the LEOs in my state wont stop you unless you're obviously intoxicated or actually committing a crime.
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DUI and public intoxication usually are crimes.
 
Something to think about, how many of us have things that are illegal in your state in your car right now?

example something hanging from your rear view mirror, too dark of tint, etc etc?

Also none of us are prefect drivers, its just a mater of time before we do something that will warrent us being pulled over.

I'm not saying its right, but given time, they will find a reason to pull over anyone.
 
If a LEO asks you to stop, you absolutely have to or else you can be charged with resisting arrest.
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If a LEO is asking you to stop, they aren't arresting you, so how can they arrest you for resisting arrest.
 
If a LEO is asking you to stop, they aren't arresting you, so how can they arrest you for resisting arrest.
Click to expand...

There are laws in Michigan that make "Resisting, obstructing, opposing, et. al." an officer a felony. If I have reasonable suspicion that you are committing a crime, or need to stop you for something as simple as a civil infraction, that means that I have the legal authority to stop you. To resist that authority is a felony.
 
What are my rights as far as not complying with any sort of arrest attempt until/unless the following conditions are met...


1- I am given a clear list of the charges against me.

2- The officer shows me ALL relevant identification that establishes he is an officer of the law with the statutory power of arrest in the jurisdiction I am presently located in.

3- I am allowed to contact the police station/dispatcher to assure that the police officer is actually legitimate and they have an actual unit there.

4- They send a marked squad car with a uniformed officer (this is only applicable in the cases where the initial stop is made by a plain clothes officer).



I won't allow a man in plain clothes (or even a uniform- as they are too commonly stolen these days) to put handcuffs on me, let alone put me in a car, when I know I haven't done anything, just because they claim to be a police officer.

If they really are a cop, they won't mind sitting there for X minutes while the station is contacted and while a marked squad car is sent (if this last part is applicable due to the initial unit being unmarked), will they?

I won't get into any car just because somebody says they are a cop, nor will I hand over my gun to anybody just because they say they are a cop.
 
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