Police requirements to initiate a stop?

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"There are laws in Michigan that make "Resisting, obstructing, opposing, et. al." an officer a felony"

Exactly. Forget about the days when this country was founded and you could refuse quarter for an officer. Now-a-days, if you're asked to stop for no reason, and you don't stop, they will find a way to put you in jail.

Sad, but that's the truth. I'm not a LEO, just stating it like it is.
 
There are laws in Michigan that make "Resisting, obstructing, opposing, et. al." an officer a felony. If I have reasonable suspicion that you are committing a crime, or need to stop you for something as simple as a civil infraction, that means that I have the legal authority to stop you. To resist that authority is a felony.
The problem is two fold.

1. There is rarely if ever any effective penalty for LE when they violate the rules on what constitutes a legitimate stop.

2. In most cases, LE's verson of what happened is accepted without question by the courts unless there is some compelling evidence to the contrary (such as video).
 
If the police want to "pull over" a motorist, chances are they can find a reason. I "ustawas" a deputy sheriff and I once made a bet with another LEO that I could follow him (private cars) and observe at least two violations in the first mile. I won the bet; he had seven violations in that mile that could have resulted in his being stopped.

Jim
 
How about a question on what's happening. I'll cooperate, what did I do wrong? Ask : Am I under arrest? Am I free to go? If I am under arrest I wish to remain silent. And do so. Any thing else will be held against you, but you don't have to take Abuse. Just drive like Grandma. Obey the signs.
 
What are my rights as far as not complying with any sort of arrest attempt until/unless the following conditions are met...


1- I am given a clear list of the charges against me.

2- The officer shows me ALL relevant identification that establishes he is an officer of the law with the statutory power of arrest in the jurisdiction I am presently located in.

3- I am allowed to contact the police station/dispatcher to assure that the police officer is actually legitimate and they have an actual unit there.

4- They send a marked squad car with a uniformed officer (this is only applicable in the cases where the initial stop is made by a plain clothes officer).

The street is not a court room. For better or worse, right or wrong, the law gives one absolutely zero power to resist a LEO even if the arrest / contact is improper (in Michigan). That's what courts are for. And yes, you can file a civil suit for an unlawful arrest. And yes, officers can be seriously punished for it (and potentially even criminally charged :eek:). It's certainly not a free-for-all for us out there, despite what some here believe.

I see where you are coming from, though. During an arrest, however, there are no "charges". Charges come from the prosecutor later. If I'm arresting somebody and they ask "What for!?" I'll gladly tell them. This is not cause to stop and read off a list, however. They can go ahead and ask while they are complying, as there will be no "pause" to the arrest.

As for #2, He'll be the guy in a blue uniform (or brown, if it's a Deputy) with a badge and duty belt. For a plain-clothes officer (who will in my experience usually call for a uniformed officer to make contact), they'll have a badge and ID card with them.

#3 = No! Stay off the phone.

For #4, see response to #2 above.

I won't allow a man in plain clothes (or even a uniform- as they are too commonly stolen these days) to put handcuffs on me, let alone put me in a car, when I know I haven't done anything, just because they claim to be a police officer.

Well then welcome to felony-land. Just make sure you yell "Don't taze me, bro!", 'cause it looks good on camera.

1. There is rarely if ever any effective penalty for LE when they violate the rules on what constitutes a legitimate stop.

2. In most cases, LE's verson of what happened is accepted without question by the courts unless there is some compelling evidence to the contrary (such as video).

1) As far as punishment for the officer, probably not. Unless it becomes a pattern of improper stops, searches, and seizures. Then yes.

2) Generally true. Depends on the officer and the testimony, though. Believe it or not, judges doubt officers on a regular basis. Some officers more than others, some not at all. Judges get to know who the officers are. If an officer establishes a reputation for "bending" the truth, the judge will be inclined to disregard his testimony. No, really.
 
Sergeant Sabre-

Ted Bundy "arrested" a number of people who thought they were going with a legitimate cop. There are literally dozens of cases per year of people posing as police to gain entry into homes, or to make bogus arrests that turn into robberies/murders.

There was just a home invasion by 5-6 mexican soldiers, who were wearing police uniforms, in Phoenix, about a week or so ago.


It's not unreasonable to expect police to prove they are police, especially with the way criminals are becoming more cunning with how they victimize people.


If it is two in the morning and I hear a knock on my door and one or two people are standing there, wearing police uniforms, and they say "police open up!" and I ask them (without opening the door) "do you have a warrant" and they say "we're the police open up!" I'm going to again ask "do you have a warrant? If not go away..." if they again say "police, open up!" or some other such nonsense, I'm going to tell them that I'm going to open up with an AR-15, and/or call the real police.

If somebody is a real cop, they shouldn't mind placating the fears of a citizen by proving it, should they? Just as we citizens provide ID and concealed carry permits, as per law, officers should provide some prove, as per commonsense and common decency, that they are who they say they are, and that they're not some vicious serial killer or gang member, who is intent on robbery or murder.
 
Well then welcome to felony-land. Just make sure you yell "Don't taze me, bro!", 'cause it looks good on camera.


If a man in plain clothes walks up to me, has a gun on him, and tries to put me into handcuffs, saying something such as "you're coming with me" or whatever, either my wife or my father (depending on who I am with) is probably going to draw on him and possibly/probably kill him, unless he can explain within about 2-5 seconds, what the hell he is doing and upon what authority he is doing it. That's if I don't handle it myself to begin with.

If I've done something that warrants being arrested, I won't be surprised and I'll expect it. If I haven't done anything, and I know I haven't done anything, then I will have to assume it is some whacko killer, gang member, etc, or some sort of maniac, as that would be the only immediate explanation for why they would try to "arrest" me without willingly stating valid charges and proving they are who they say they are.


Do you know how easily a criminal could impersonate a cop? Particularly a plain clothes one?
 
1- I am given a clear list of the charges against me.

2- The officer shows me ALL relevant identification that establishes he is an officer of the law with the statutory power of arrest in the jurisdiction I am presently located in.

3- I am allowed to contact the police station/dispatcher to assure that the police officer is actually legitimate and they have an actual unit there.

4- They send a marked squad car with a uniformed officer (this is only applicable in the cases where the initial stop is made by a plain clothes officer).
Most cops are not going to do any of the things you think are necessary. By inclination and training the only thing that matters is compliance and that means mostly if you don't instantly do as told, you go down.

You can argue it later in court but you will lose in most cases.

You need to pester your favorite politicians if you want any changes in the way things really are out there.
 
Most cops are not going to do any of the things you think are necessary. By inclination and training the only thing that matters is compliance and that means mostly if you don't instantly do as told, you go down.

Or they go down... I mean it, I have never violated any law and I am not a fudgitive from justice. I am no criminal and I refuse to be treated as such. If somebody in plain clothes comes up to me and pulls a gun on me and tells me I am going with him, it's not going to end well for anybody. Most likely my dad is going to draw on him and then I'm either going to draw on him or make a hand-to-hand move so I can buy space/time to draw. If it later turns out that it was a cop, then it'll have been a real shame that the department didn't teach him how to conduct an effective arrest/approach when operating in plain clothes.

My first thought, if in a situation, wouldn't be "oh, it's just a nice police man in plain clothes coming to arrest me for that robbery a week ago" because I know I didn't commit any such offense.

I'd say that police operating in unmarked units in plain clothes have an additional burden to citizens in regards to actually establishing -via reasonable methods- that they are legitimately police officers.

I won't become some statistic or case study just because somebody with a nice looking movie prop badge, a gun, and a set of handcuffs, decided that I was an easy mark. Police carry legitimate photo-ID and that, combined with a few other things, would make it unlikely that they would be a maniac killer with an impersonation act going on. If somebody only has a badge, handcuffs, and a gun, that means absolutely nothing. I could go get all of those three things in about twenty minutes.
 
Or they go down... I mean it...unless he can explain within about 2-5 seconds, what the hell he is doing and upon what authority he is doing it. That's if I don't handle it myself to begin with

Ya, whatever.

If somebody in plain clothes comes up to me and pulls a gun on me...

Will you quit it with the "plain clothes" nonsense? What did I say about that before? "Some guy in plain clothes" is not going to simply charge at you. The "some guy in plain clothes" is going to call for a uniformed officer to initiate contact in most cases. If you think the guy wearing a uniform, badge, duty belt, and driving a fully-marked police car is fake, then you're hopeless. How do you know the jail they take you to is real, or the silly guy with the black robe is really a judge? If you want to push your luck, I suppose you could do so. You will know that the pain is real.

I'm not going to goof around with your "beat up a cop" fantasy. The point remains that you have no legal basis whatsoever to resist police action (again, in Michigan. Your laws may vary). If you do, you get the pain, both physically and legally. Go ahead with your "my wife and dad draw" plan. If you carry that one out the three of you will either A) die, or B) go to prison.
 
Ya, whatever.


Police are not the end all be all...

A few counties away from mine, a woman called the police because her cousin beat her up. The cop arrives on the scene, she is staggering and barely able to stand, she collapses into his arms, he throws her on the ground and then puts her in a choke-hold, screaming that she is not to touch him (he claims he was assaulted), he then tells her to stop resisting, etc, he arrests her. His dashboard camera was off during the drive back to the station.

When he got her back there, the cameras were on/off in a sketchy manner (large segments of her booking were not captured on film, specific segments were missing). What was caught was 4 male officers and 2 female officers standing in her cell, STRIPPING HER NAKED, as she screamed, cried, and begged them not to touch her. She says she does not know/remember if she was raped, she doesn't believe she was, but she felt very violated at being stripped totally naked and then left naked in the cell for upwards of six hours.


I told my wife, basically, if anything like that ever happens, that it won't get beyond the first part of that, when the cop starts attacking her on the scene, she is to just go prone because I'm going to take him out with an AR-15 or an AK-47.

He was called to the scene to help an assault victim and he wound up brutalizing her, and quite possibly raping her.


http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.aspx?aid=53820&bw=

http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=82519


Yeah, I want to be a cop, but I won't play that way and I wouldn't tolerate those who do. If my partner was beating the crap out of some woman who called 911 to get help because she had been attacked, I sure as hell wouldn't stand there, let alone joining in the stripping of her.


So excuse me if I don't want to give police a blank check and absolute unearned trust. Trust is earned...
 
I told my wife, basically, if anything like that ever happens, that it won't get beyond the first part of that, when the cop starts attacking her on the scene, she is to just go prone because I'm going to take him out with an AR-15 or an AK-47.

*sigh*

Surely if this little fantasy of yours ever comes to fruition, you will die in prison if not at the scene. Nobody will hail you as a hero, and you will have no legal defense. You know that, right?

Silly fantasies like this make it difficult to take the other things you say seriously.
 
*sigh*

Surely if this little fantasy of yours ever comes to fruition, you will die in prison if not at the scene. Nobody will hail you as a hero, and you will have no legal defense. You know that, right?

Silly fantasies like this make it difficult to take the other things you say seriously.


Tell that to the woman who the police beat, brutalized, and possibly raped...



I have dozens of friends/followers. If somebody wants another WACO, they can bring it... Only *I* WON'T grant a cease-fire/truce when the attackers run out of ammo and want to collect their wounded and fall back.

It's not unreasonable to expect police to be held to reasonable standards. In civilized society people are either held to standards or they are removed from society, regardless of who they are, what jobs they have, or what status they claim. If somebody cannot do their job without brutalizing a woman, then they do not deserve to have the job (and quite possibly do not deserve to live, at least not amongst the general society).

All I ever wanted, my entire life, is to be left alone. I am not a criminal and will never be treated like one for things I have not done and won't do. What's your problem with that?

Are you with the DEA or the ATF?
 
you better have alot of witnesses to testify that you had no choice but to shoot the cop. Even then, you may not survive the waiting time to go to trial.
 
you better have alot of witnesses to testify that you had no choice but to shoot the cop.


In this case, the one in the link I referenced, the woman had several witnesses to what was going on, and the most telling thing was that the cop had his dashboard camera off for a fair bit of time (on/off intervals- as in, to my knowledge, it was not on when he had her alone in his car on the way back to the station). What happened during that time period? Who knows...
 
you better have alot of witnesses to testify that you had no choice but to shoot the cop.


I've never killed anybody in my life and I'd hope I wind up not having to do so. I keep to myself and lay low to avoid trouble. However, if it comes to it, I'm not beyond killing anybody if the situation requires it.
 
EOTech,

You’re voicing concerns about the ever-increasing government intrusion into our lives. I see what you're saying. However, as always, the Internet will take your well-meaning, non-Establishment opinion and distort it for the worst.

Regards,
Jake
 
EOTechRulesAll-

I appreciate your earlier input but could you refrain from sending my thread to the land of the locked with the wild scenario stuff. Thanks.
 
Okay, I can do that for you.

I just get annoyed when people make somebody out to be a criminal because they just want to be left alone and they want minimal assurances that any encounter they have with a peace officer is indeed with a genuine peace officer. I've never had a traffic ticket, I've never been in trouble with the law (except one time when I wound up with the WRONG passengers in my car and got hauled in because of what was going on with them, but released shortly after, while they were NOT released since they had a LOT of stuff attached to their names they had never told me about- last time that ever happened), anyway... I've never run a redlight, I obey all traffic laws, I keep to myself, I help police out with information/witness statements when I see stuff, I call in suspicious activity, reckless semi-trucks, etc. As for myself and matters of the law, I basically just want to be left alone, mainly since I haven't done anything.

If I have an encounter with police, I want them to take five minutes to humor me and let me determine that they are indeed legitimate police. I don't see that as a problem. Five minutes of their time, maybe ten minutes, so that I can rest assured I am not going to lose my life by going with them. That's very reasonable from my point of view.
 
You sir, sound unstable. Just in case you're hoping to court more friends... and "followers."
 
I hardly call believing in God, the Constitution, and private property rights, to be unstable. But then again, at this day in age, as it has been said, telling the truth is a revolutionary act in an age of universal deceit.

If this were 1776, you'd be serving tea to the king's men because they came in the name of a powerful authority figure and were in the uniform of an authority figure. I'd be hiding behind trees and shooting at them as the location situations favored such action.

There are those who bow to any authority for obedience's sake, and those who give due regard to just and reasonable authority because if it is just it will have shown itself deserving of such obedience. That which is not just does not deserve any sort of obedience, let alone the blind sort that you seem to give it.

I have followers because I am a religious man and I speak the word of God, that is not a crime. Having a bible is not yet a crime, despite what the FBI and JTTF brochures state. Although it seems if you make a few too many references to the Constitution, you're going to be reported to the FBI and/or JTTF... You have a bible in your car, a permit to carry a firearm, and you talk about the Constitution, woah! You're on your way to Guantanamo!

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