Police Tazer - Judge for yourself

[cidirkona]

Let the lady vent, cite her for her violations, and have a bench warrant issued for her arrest.

Can they let someone go whom they're supposed to arrest? Arrest her. If she doens't wanna go... too bad!

She was on the phone telling someone that she was getting arrested. The officer tazed her immediately after she told whoever (Mark?) was on the phone where she was. At that point, I think the officer was just in tazing her to stop her conversation for his own safety. He had no idea if she was calling for 'help.'

-Colin

 

[walking arsenal]

Wait, i keep reading that running thousands of volts of electricity through your body doesnt cause harm?

How many threads have we read were the guy tazed dies?

These tazers are a menace in my opinion, i can see way too many cases of trigger happy with these things just because "they cause no harm".



Question though from a budding law enforcement student.

Do you have to carry mace and a tazer? because if they have to try them on me so i know what its like, i'd like to have the option to say "no thats ok". plus i hate having 40 pounds of stuff around my waist.

 

[cidirkona]

i hate having 40 pounds of stuff around my waist.

...but how else are the COPS camera men supposed to keep up with you when they're carrying 40 pounds worth of recording equipment/batteries?!

-Colin

 

[walking arsenal]

I suppose i'll just have to shoot the BG in the leg so he doesnt run so fast.




Bad boys, bad boys, watcha gonna do? watcha gonna do when comes for youuuuuuuuu.

 

[cidirkona]

Or even better, Taze him! They don't make that neat ZZZZZzzzt "Gwaawawawahwaagawgawa...." sound otherwise...

-Colin

 

[walking arsenal]

I know but BLAAAAAAAAAMMMM! OW! Thud! Is so much quicker.

 

[lysander]

Can they let someone go whom they're supposed to arrest? Arrest her.

Most likely no. I'm not a cop so I wouldn't know the specifics. Perhaps a fellow THR member who is an LEO in the area in question could shed some light?

All I am trying to say is this: Does driving with a "suspended license" and getting belligerent with an officer really warrant two "tazings"? I certainly don't want to get into some kind of a libertarian argument regarding the validity of licensing in the first place...but really...should you be zapped because your papers are not in order with the state? Why was her license suspended? Is she a habitutal drunk driver or is her license suspended because has a tendency to speed in a vehicle that isn't "up to code" (broken windshield and taillights)? If the offense is bureacratic in nature shouldn't the punishment fit the crime?

What if we substitute the taser with a billy club? Or replace the offense with something even more innocuous than driving with a suspended license, like jaywalking? Is it not possible to see an unsettling trend in the use of "compliance force" like this?

 

[Warbow]

All I am trying to say is this: Does driving with a "suspended license" and getting belligerent with an officer really warrant two "tazings"? I certainly don't want to get into some kind of a libertarian argument regarding the validity of licensing in the first place...but really...should you be zapped because your papers are not in order with the state? Why was her license suspended? Is she a habitutal drunk driver or is her license suspended because has a tendency to speed in a vehicle that isn't "up to code" (broken windshield and taillights)? If the offense is bureacratic in nature shouldn't the punishment fit the crime?

She wasn't tased because her "papers weren't in order." She was tased because she refused to comply with the lawful orders of the officer (and allegedly swung at the other officer).

What if we substitute the taser with a billy club?

Take a trip back to the 50s, 60s and 70s and you'd get just that substitute.

 

[Deep Blue]

Wait, i keep reading that running thousands of volts of electricity through your body doesnt cause harm?

Its not the volts that do the damage, its the amps. A couple of thousand volts is painfull, but not lethal. I believe it only takes something like one-hundredth of an amp to kill you however. As long as the amperage that the Tasers put out is low, the voltage can be relatively high, and there shouldn't be any danger.

 

[lysander]

She wasn't tased because her "papers weren't in order." She was tased because she refused to comply with the lawful orders of the officer (and allegedly swung at the other officer).

Which helps us drill down deeper towards what I am getting at. It should make people in this country uncomfortable that those who issue the "lawful orders" have the ability to "safely" induce pain to gain compliance. Again let me stress that I believe this woman to be wrong on many levels, in violation of the law on many levels, however...it worries me that the typical response to this type of incident is the much lauded and overworked "she deserved it" statement.

I certainly wish people could be more civil in their behavior and responsible in their actions...but I get squeamish when I see incidents like this because it adds to my existing knowledge base that the state is only benign until it turns its eyes on YOU. When that does happen...you had better hope that you: a) aren't doing ANYTHING wrong (near impossible in today's day and age)which can later be used to justify how you are treated, and b) you get a patient and decent "peace officer" on the other side of your car door.

I think many of the "law and order" or "she deserved it" folks on THR may have never found themselves on the wrong side (whether deserving or not) of the law. It will change your perspective.

 

[SlabSlinger]

Higher Power forbid that anyone would get tangled up in the mortal sin of being "overly focused on their rights." Why you'd think that people might want to live in a place where they can go about their business and all...

Lysander, when I used the phrase "their rights", I was referring to the perception of many folks that they can do anything they please (legal or otherwise) without consequense; however, I really think that you knew that.

 

[lysander]

Slabslinger,

I did...hence the

As Barney Fife once said: "I was being fesishsus."

 

[Bad Words]

I think the cop was very much in the wrong in this one. I saw no reason at all to use force against her as she wasn't a threat to the officers. Also, the officer claims that he tazed her because she swung at his partner, while the partner was on the other side of the vehicle and you don't see her moving in the back windshield and can hear her talking calmly on her cell phone. I highly doubt she really swung at them, besides the fact that the officer told her before he did it that it was because she refused to exit the vehicle. The woman was clearly naive of laws, and I think she would have cooperated if she understood the situation she was in.

 

[MikeIsaj]

Higher Power forbid that anyone would get tangled up in the mortal sin of being "overly focused on their rights."

Nothing wrong with being focused on your rights but, if you are going to be so emphatic about your rights being respected, you owe it to the rest of society to know what your rights are and aren't. Otherwise you get yourself in a mess because you are stupid.

That being said...this is an event that deserves blame placed on both sides.

Nope Only one person to blame here. Only one person broke the law and the response was reasonable. Only thing I would have done different is I would not have talked to her so much. My philosophy is, argue your case in the courtroom, not the curb. You want to argue the case, I am not going to participate in that discussion.

Why escalate? Let the lady vent, cite her for her violations, and have a bench warrant issued for her arrest.

This woman has been permitted to vent too often already. How do you think she got this way? She learned a valuable lesson in acceptable public behavior. Eventually you will run into someone who isn't going to put up with your nonsense. Better it be a professional police officer with a level of self control than some citizen in a bar who just can't stand listening to another word.

On some levels it is the policeman's job to take guff from the citizenry

Nope again. Not at all. Police aren't the community whipping boys. They put up with your stupidity and ignorance because they are professional and don't sink to your level. To think it's their job to be abused is just plain stupid. Sorry, can't think of a nicer way to say it. It is no ones job to be abused by another. That type of behavior no matter who it is directed at is unacceptable.

 

[jefnvk]

So, to those of youwho don't think the taser was appropriate, how do you propose that they arrest her?

 

[Teufelhunden]

Again, I ask, what did we do before OC spray and tazers

Beat them into handcuffs, beat them some more, and charge them with resisting arrest.

OC and the TASER have been introduced as means of adding levels between officer prescence and lethal force on the force continuum. A tasing and multiple blows with an ASP to get submission are far from one another. The TASER has no lasting effects other than some people scar where the probes hit (I'm one of them). Gaining compliance through use of blunt trauma (ASP) will result in multiple lasting injuries possibly requiring hospital services.

Let the lady vent, cite her for her violations, and have a bench warrant issued for her arrest.

I don't know about FL, but here in GA, driving on a suspended license is an arrestable offense. The only change I would have made to this interaction would be to inform her she was under arrest, then you'd have grounds for an obstruction charge once she refused. On the other hand, he might have very well been trying to get her out from behind the wheel before he informed her that she was under arrest.

I really wish more of the general citizenry could spend time interacting with the less desirable elements of our society to really understand why some measures are necessary when dealing with them. 95% of the population doesn't deal with these scum on a routine basis, so it is easier for them to cry foul when the appropriate measures are employed to arrest them.

-Teuf

 

[RTFM]

Just to throw a different link in to the mix, here is the video again, from the dash cam, and below you can click and hear the training offices report and critique of the officers action.

I feel this is a MUCH BETTER link than the first two provided, because they are for entertainment, where as this link has LOE discussions included.

(no offense guys, I just wanted to let everyone see the other parts of the story)

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/video/taser_video3a.html

The officers training officer decided that taser was THE BEST choice for this situation.

RTFM

 

[Bad Words]

So, to those of youwho don't think the taser was appropriate, how do you propose that they arrest her?

Wait it out. I'd consider waiting a few hours to be a better option than tazing somebody. Until she calms down, or until she has an attorney on site to tell her what a moron she's being. He should have told her why he was arresting her, too, instead of just saying it was for speeding. The change in his reason for tazing her makes me suspect it was against policy, as well, which is certainly what I'd hope was the case. It also seemed that they could have forced her out of the car without tazing her or inflicting a great deal of pain. I don't know if this is an option or is considered too risky to the police, but it's obvious the police didn't consider her a threat at any point. I don't think police should not be allowed to taze someone unless it's in defense of themselves or someone else. Force may be necessary to make an arrest, but tazing someone for their attitude is far excessive in my opinion.

 

[Buck Snort]

Somebody far wiser than I once remarked, "Life is tough, its tougher when yer STUPID!!!"

 

[Matthew748]

I watched the video and was thinking that just yanking her out of the car might have been a better solution until I read Coronach's post about the dangers of wrestling with someone still behind the wheel. I think what the officer did was justified, but its pretty darn close to the line in the sand.

 

[dzimmerm]

volts and amps and death oh my

I heard some brief discussion about volts verses amps and what kills you.

It is power that kills you. If your heart does not stop beating due to the electrical signal then it is your flesh being cooked by power that does the damage.

Power is expressed in wattage. Wattage brings into play the fact that it takes a certain voltage to drive a certain amount of current(amps) through a given substance. If you have a electrical source that is not limited in it's current output the deciding factor is the resistance or conductivity of the substance.

If you take a bar of silver which has very low resistance it takes almost no voltage to drive very large amounts of current through it.

If you are dealing with air, which normally has a very high resistance, it takes a much higher voltage to drive a simular amount of current. It also depends on factors like humidity and gas composition of the air. It also depends on whether the air had already been ionized.

The human body varies quite a bit in it's resistance. If you sweat your skin resistance goes down. There are many other factors that could vary a human bodies resistance.

From an engineering perspective the tazer is designed to have enough voltage to overcome any normal body resistance. The circuitry in the taser should limit the current so no heating of tissue happens. Thus the only affect of the tazer will be the affect on the nervous system and the muscles attached to it.

If you have a pacemaker you should probably avoid being tazed.

I am guessing the tazer probes being shot into your skin is also not pleasent. I am also guessing the high voltage signal makes it not an issue until after the fact when you have to remove them.

The lady might have been crying due to the probes piercing her skin but I would imagine it was her pride that was making most of the wails. It sounded to me just like a small child who does not get their way at a grocery store and chooses to make a scene in hopes they will get what they want anyway.

dzimmerm

 

[40cal]

The officers made the correct choice.

Officers can and will use force to gain compliance. This includes compliance with a passive resister, or an active resistive and active assaultive, all of which describe the suspect in the video.

 

[DonNikmare]

Maybe she was depressed and that's why she was acting that way.

I'll have you know that despite of the decline of it's use & popularity, electro shock therapy is still the most effective form of treatment for people with chronic depression who do not or have ceased to respond to pharmacotherapy/meds or in this here case... who do not or have ceased to respond to lawful police officer commands.

Thanks to "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" who vilified it is looked down on and not advertised but nevertheless still used.

Anyway, Taze on my brother...taze on! She worked very hard to earn it.

Nik

 

[ExtremeDooty]

I think many of the "law and order" or "she deserved it" folks on THR may have never found themselves on the wrong side (whether deserving or not) of the law. It will change your perspective.

You are correct. I have been pulled over for speeding before. I said "yes, sir and no, sir" and didn't give the cop a load of crap. I got my ticket, and I was on my way in a few minutes without getting tazed or beaten. But then, I wasn't committing multiple crimes like driving on a suspended license as well as speeding and not wearing a seat belt.

If nothing else, "she deserved it" because of her own stupidity. If you're going to drive on a suspended license, you should at least be smart enough not to draw attention to yourself by breaking other traffic laws. She obviously has no respect for the law and suffered the consequences.

That last speeding ticket, almost 30 years ago, did change my perspective. I stopped speeding and I haven't been pulled over since. Funny how that works. I guess that makes me part of the "law and order" crowd. No apology implied.

 

[meef]

I've got to say, that was one of the funniest videos I've seen in a while.

She didn't like the outcome? Too freakin' bad. She had multiple opportunities to avoid what happened.

You don't have to agree with what's going down, but if you've even half a brain - you will comply and contest it in court at a later date.