Police Video...

[english kanigit]

I've been trying to decide for two days if i should post this or not. I'll leave it up to you guys.
Mods, if you wish to erase this thread, I will understand.

Police video Warning- Graphic

Aside from letting him roam around in the open and working without backup, what else went wrong here?

 

[Zundfolge]

Jeebus I HATE these kind of video sites ... they insist on forcing you to stream the video instead of letting you download the stupid thing so half the time you can't see the video, and often when you can it just stutters and the audio drops out.

Why don't they just put a stupid direct download link?

 

[danny]

Zundfolge, right below the box that the movie plays in they give the URL to the source. Cut & paste it into your address bar and once you get there click on "file" in the upper left corner of your screen. Then click "save" and you'll be good to go.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

I am not a LEO, just an 21 year old civilian. I have no clew on what police procedures are.....

The LEO said "put the gun down" 5 times before the guy with the M1 fired. The third time the LEO said "put the gun down now" the guy with the M1 said "NO."

On the third time when the guy with the M1 said no, I would have open fire.

HOWEVER the LEO knew he was outgunned by the guy with the M1, that might have made him hesitant to fire since he knew he was out gunned in the first place.(If the LEO opend fire, then the guy would have opend fire, perhaps he was hoping he could de-escilate the situation) The thing is, if I was the LEO, and I knew I was outgunned and would most likely lose the battle, I would have hopped in my cruiser and took off.

That's one tough situation, that's one for the anti-gun activists

 

[Pietro Beretta]

Looking at the video a second time, When the guy with the M1 first went for the gun, and the LEO seen he went for the gun. Thats when the LEO should have opend fire. He was obviously affraid when he seen the guy start to pull out the M1, you can hear it in his voice "I got a guy with a gun, I need help; PUT THE GUN DOWN" The LEO was affraid for his life, If I was the LEO thats when I would have opened fire on the Mother F*****

 

[Kobun]

Other version of video
Dep. Kyle Dinkheller, RIP, of the Georgia Lawrence County Sheriffs office was killed, most likely because he hesitated in that situation.

 

[pax]

On another forum, one of the posters commented that Officer Dinkheller may have hesitated because he had been reprimanded a short time before for drawing his pistol unnecessarily.

I do not know if this is factual or not, but am passing it along as food for thought. There might be reasons to hesitate in such a situation, reasons that seem good and sufficient at the time.

But is it worth your life?



pax

 

[Kobun]

I found this information:

THE INCIDENT
Deputy Kyle Dinkheller, Laurens County, GA, was minutes from being off duty when he
encountered a speeding pickup truck going 98 mph. The deputy was an ICE (Interstate
Criminal Enforcement) officer that dealt with traffic infractions, speeding and the occasional
drug bust. This was a low risk or unknown risk stop for speeding. He radioed in the speeding
infraction, made a U-turn in the median and pursued the vehicle.
The driver, Andrew Brannan, stopped his vehicle, exited and started a crazy, dancing jig in
the middle of the road while swearing at the officer and shouting ‘I’m a god-damned
Vietnam vet.” At first, he ignored Dinkheller’s commands to step towards the deputy, which
always began with `Sir’.
When he finally complied, he attacked the deputy and a scuffle ensued. The deputy
implemented the use of his asp and ordered Brannan to `get back’. This procedure was
repeated, but after what appeared to be a second scuffle, the suspect returned to his vehicle
and retrieved a M-I Carbine from under the seat. The first shots were fired nearly 50 seconds
after Brannan returned to his vehicle despite the deputy’s commands
Brannan ignored the repeated commands to put the gun down and Deputy Dinkheller
apparently fired the first shot. Brannan, a Vietnam veteran, advanced firing on the deputy.
Dinkheller returned fire, but succeeded only in breaking a window in the driver’s side of the
pickup and wounding Brannan in the stomach. Using `suppressive fire’, Brannan
systematically, methodically shot Dinkheller in the arms, legs, exposed areas that would not
be covered had Dinkheller been wearing a bulletproof vest, slowly executing him. Reloading
his weapon Brannan continued firing with the final death shot to Dinkheller’s right eye.

LESSONS LEARNED
· Gain control of the situation
· Call your partner and/or call for backup
· Maintain control of the situation
· Make verbal commands clear to the subject
· Go one level higher than your attacker
· If subject lays hands on you, take him/her down
· Use whatever tools are necessary
· Never let subject return to his/her vehicle
· Keep the subject away from the vehicle and, if necessary, go to the vehicle yourself
· Determine when lethal force is justified; then, use it if called for
· Go by the book and lean on training as safeguards against liability issues
· Develop a scenario, a plan for any given situation.
· Be mentally and physically prepared to be a professional
· The issue of liability is not worth your life

 

[NCP24]

The deputy never took control of the situation and allowed things to escalate beyond his control. When verbal commands fail it’s time to elevate the level of force.

 

[RiverwinoIA]

this video really hits home the disadvantages of a pistol in a gunfight.

The officers stress level goes nuts and his aim goes with it. Even though he did get some hits in, they obviously didnt even slow the perp down (if anything, it sealed his own fate, as the perp was then blinded with rage)

Too bad he didnt have a shotgun or rifle handy in the cruiser, it could have saved his life.

 

[zahc]

If it's the video I'm thinking it is, then I'm not saying he deserved it in any way, but he kind of asked for it. I have never had to shoot anyone, so I can't say for sure how I'd react.

I would have shot the guy as soon as I saw the gun, if not as soon as I saw him reaching behind the seat, regardless of use-of-force rules, but he should have been well within them for any police department at that point correct? He had plenty of time, the suspect was not moving, and not far away.

I was so shocked. I was like 'he's going to shoot him now, when he's walking back to his truck, no, maybe now as soon as he reaches behind his seat, no, then maybe now that he HAS A GUN, jeez why hasn't he shot him by now, maybe now that he is pointing it in his direction...." I was just astounded, and wondered if there was something wrong with the officer's gun.

The officer basically failed to defend himself and it cost him his life. He had a gun and did not use it when he needed it. A tragic example of how having a gun does not make you armed.

 

[Luchtaine]

I was gonna say that looked like an m1 carbine not an Ak47 which was confirmed by previous article.

Why it escalated so far I have no idea, the officer didn't start out belligerant or anything I think the "perp" just wanted to shoot someone. Its terrible to see someone kill another person for no reason.

In my humble opinion the officer would have been more than justified to open fire when the guy started loading the rifle. Atleast thats what it looked like he was doing at first putting rounds in the magazine. If someone starts putting rounds in the magazine they mean to kill you no doubt in my mind. If he was really concerned about legality he could have waited for him to put the magazine in the gun I guess but I wouldn't wait for the barrel to be pointed in my direction. Especially in the case of an obviously belligerant subject.

 

[Pietro Beretta]

I found this when searching on what happend to the suspect.

LYLE DINKHELLER - Laurens County Deputy Sheriff murdered in 1998
Andrew Brannan - sentenced to death
BRUNSWICK, GEORGIA
Across the area: Convicted killer sentenced to die --(Augusta Chronicle) A 51-year-old McDonough man was sentenced to death Sunday in the Jan. 12, 1998, slaying of Laurens County Deputy Sheriff Lyle Dinkheller. Andrew Brannan had pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, but the jury agreed Friday that Mr. Brannan was neither insane nor mentally ill, but guilty.

Good

 

[nomadboi]

Looked like he was trying for suicide by cop there, and when he didn't get it, he got annoyed and killed the cop... probably figured he'd make the news, have a big final shootout, and get killed in the end. Sounds like it didn't go down that way. Sucks for all involved. Dude was armed, but jumping around waving his arms in front of a cop saying 'shoot me', then shot the cop. Shame he couldn't save everyone the grief and just do the job himself.

 

[Working Man]

Damn.... I hoped they changed training to promote the wellbeing of the LEOs.

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

Deputy Kyle Dinkheller was only twenty-two years of age at the time of his murder. He sadly left behind a wife and toddler. I have to think that an older and more experienced officer might have been more on top of the situation.

~ Blue Jays ~

 

[strambo]

Actually, the LEO was trained well enough. He gave forceful commands because that is what he was trained to do...problem was he didn't have the confidence to back them up. His mindset failed him, not his training.

You could tell he didn't want to have a confrontation, he desperately wanted the BG to comply. Too bad it wasn't up to him, the BG always dictates what level you have to take it to. You can't talk a nut job out of doing something crazy. Physical force needed to be the officer's plan A as soon as the guy approached him saying to "shoot him." He needed to finish it then and there, not just whack the guy a couple times and let him run back to the truck. By "finish" at this point I mean do what it takes to get him cuffed and under control, ASP/OC Taser, whatever.

When the BG got the gun, well, now you're in a gunfight whether you like it or not. Time to step up and be a gunfighter, "Get it out, get it on and get it over with." -What the instructor at the LE firearms instructor course always said, as opposed to asking him to put the gun down repeatedly until you get perforated.

If you carry a gun, then you are putting yourself in a position to be in gunfights. If you are in a position to be in gunfights, you better be a "gunfighter." When the lead starts flying, it doesn't matter that you are a nice person, that you never expected and don't want to hurt anyone, that you don't train enough or think of yourself as a "gunfighter" or tactical ninja. All that matters for the next 5-30 seconds is how well you run your gun and how firm your resolution is to win the gunfight. Emphasis is on the latter.

 

[NCP24]

Actually, the LEO was trained well enough. He gave forceful commands because that is what he was trained to do...problem was he didn't have the confidence to back them up. His mindset failed him, not his training.

Just as a predator can smell fear, this person sized up the officer and determined he was weak. Training lends to mindset and confidence, all three of which this officer lacked and that is why he didn’t survive.

 

[strambo]

I agree, unfortunately, you can't actually train mindset. You can only explain it and demonstrate behaviors which someone with the proper mindset would engage in. Either they get it or they don't...the person has to provide the mindset themselves (after having it explained to them and why) and they have to get in that frame of mind in training and not just go through the motions.

The trainers' biggest challenge is to get the trainees to understand this and actually do it. At the end of the day it's real hard to tell who has the proper mindset and who is just going through the motions.

 

[pax]

At the end of the day it's real hard to tell who has the proper mindset and who is just going through the motions.

That is sadly true.

Sometimes it will come out in role play; if so, that's a good reality check.

Unfortunately, some people insist on gaming even a well-designed role play. Afterward, if you ask them, "Would you do that in real life?" they hang their heads and say, "Well, actually, I would ..." But when they start the sentence that way, you know they actually wouldn't. They wouldn't, because they didn't. And no matter how realistic the scenario, the players were under only moderate stress compared to real life.

pax

 

[GoRon]

If you carry a gun, then you are putting yourself in a position to be in gunfights. If you are in a position to be in gunfights, you better be a "gunfighter." When the lead starts flying, it doesn't matter that you are a nice person, that you never expected and don't want to hurt anyone, that you don't train enough or think of yourself as a "gunfighter" or tactical ninja. All that matters for the next 5-30 seconds is how well you run your gun and how firm your resolution is to win the gunfight. Emphasis is on the latter.

Very well put.

 

[NCP24]

The trainers' biggest challenge is to get the trainees to understand this and actually do it. At the end of the day it's real hard to tell who has the proper mindset and who is just going through the motions.

I agree! Did you guys ever see the video where the CHP officer was in a shootout and dumped his empty shell casings into his hand and started walking back and fourth looking for the bucket to drop them in. Meanwhile the suspect continued shooting and actually shot and killed him before he ever looked back up? That was so messed up.


Mental preparedness is a must, however there is no substitution for proper training, especially when muscle memory kicks in.

 

[Cosmoline]

this video really hits home the disadvantages of a pistol in a gunfight.

Yup. Esp. if, as reported, the deputy got the first shot off. Faced with this fellow, the deputy should have had a shotgun or full power rifle in his squad car to pull out as the man returned to the truck against instructions.

This goes beyond a traffic stop and involves any self defense situation, and is a vital lesson.

IF YOU HAVE TO SHOOT--YOU WANT YOUR FIRST SHOT TO END THINGS FOREVER. Spine blown out the back, head torn off, chest exploded. The more damage your first round does, the better. This video tragically shows what happens when you bring a pistol to a rifle fight. If the bad guy had been using something more potent than a .30 carbine, the deputy would have been dead even sooner.

As far as LEO tactics. The young deputy tells him first to come back here, then tells him to get back when he approaches. There didn't seem to be any plan or control.

I would argue that he DID try to defend himself, however. He got one solid hit on the guy and you can see the driver's side window explode from a near miss. He was trying to hit the guy, but he was just outgunned. The fellow kept up a study flow of suppressive fire and broke down the deputy. Not much you can do against that sort of attack unless you get really lucky and nail him in the chest or head on the first or second shot.

Given the apparent lack of a long gun, the deputy would have been well advised to get out of there. But it's impossible to tell how badly he was wounded after the initial shots were fired.

 

[lysander]

Just painful to watch. My heart goes out to this poor kid and his family. Life can be brutish, short, painful and unfair.

All I can take from this is: panic is the enemy...and when you are faced with someone who means to do you harm...you should, can and must start and end the fight. Strike first and strike hard.

 

[MDG1976]

If you carry a gun, then you are putting yourself in a position to be in gunfights. If you are in a position to be in gunfights, you better be a "gunfighter." When the lead starts flying, it doesn't matter that you are a nice person, that you never expected and don't want to hurt anyone, that you don't train enough or think of yourself as a "gunfighter" or tactical ninja. All that matters for the next 5-30 seconds is how well you run your gun and how firm your resolution is to win the gunfight. Emphasis is on the latter.

Couldn't have said it better myslef.

I feel for the officer's family and I hope the BG rots. The officer's mistake was that he was waiting for the BG to shoot first. Unfortunaley, he was also hopelessly out-gunned.