Police want bullet from man's head

[Trebor]

Not true; there is a criminal penalty. If you refuse, at least in every state I've had a drivers license you are still convicted of a DUI. You don't just lose your license, you can be subject to fines/jail/etc.

There is a distinction here that I think you are missing.

In the cases where you agree to submit to a blood draw as a condition for receiving a driver's license, there is no *criminal* penalty for refusing that blood draw. You just automatically lose your license for that refusal.

Now, they can (and probably will) still procescute you for DUI, they just have to get a search warrant to get the blood draw to get the evidence from you. Just because you refuse to submit to a blood draw "voluntarily" does not mean you are *automatically* convicted of a DUI. They still have to present enough evidence to convict you of that criminal offense. The refusal to submit might be used as evidence, but it's not enough on it's own.

Here's an example:

Roger gets pulled over for suspected DUI. In his state he has agreed to a blood draw as a condition for receiving his license. He refuses the "voluntary" blood draw and, effectively, his license is suspended on the spot. He suffers that penalty no matter what. The cop has probabla cause, based on his driving behavior, the smell of alcohol on his breath and possibly even his refusal to submit to the "voluntary" search. The cop then gets a search warrant and takes him to the hospital for a blood draw. When the draw is completed, surprise, his blood alcohol limit is *below* the legal limit. The prosecutor then declines to prosecute, so he is not convicted of any criminal charges, but he still loses his license.

Btw, in case you think this is unlikely, all I can say is I worked in ER's for years and saw lots of people brought in for a blood draw after suspicion of DUI. The majority of them would come in over the legal limit, but every now and then someone would be below the limit, sometimes way below.

 

[Colt46]

Maybe the local DA's office

Will have to build a case against him using other methods. Is the shooter/witness that unreliable for his testimony to be called into question? This seems like someone is using this to get his name in the local papers.

 

[MikeB]

There is a distinction here that I think you are missing.

In the cases where you agree to submit to a blood draw as a condition for receiving a driver's license, there is no *criminal* penalty for refusing that blood draw. You just automatically lose your license for that refusal.

Again not correct.

Highest BAC penalties:

BAC of .16 or higher, or if you refuse to give a blood or breath sample. This is a misdemeanor with a mandatory 72 hour imprisonment, up to 6 months maximum probation, and a $1,000.00 to $5,000.00 fine. Required CRN, AHSS and mandatory full D&A. The license suspension is 12 months. Also possibility for OLL after serving 2 months suspension.

http://www.dui.com/states/pennsylvania/

I would call those criminal penalties. It's a bit more than just losing your license.

 

[Trebor]

Quote:
Highest BAC penalties:

BAC of .16 or higher, or if you refuse to give a blood or breath sample. This is a misdemeanor with a mandatory 72 hour imprisonment, up to 6 months maximum probation, and a $1,000.00 to $5,000.00 fine. Required CRN, AHSS and mandatory full D&A. The license suspension is 12 months. Also possibility for OLL after serving 2 months suspension.


http://www.dui.com/states/pennsylvania/

I would call those criminal penalties. It's a bit more than just losing your license.

Ok, you got me there and you are correct. I don't believe that is the case in Michigan though, the state I'm most familiar with. I think I fell into the "every state must be like my state" thinking.

 

[mcooper]

I hope any Doctor that preforms this operation subsequently has his liscense to practice medicine revoked. He took an oath to do no harm...that includes un needed and unwanted surgery.

 

[sam59]

Un-needed

"I hope any Doctor that preforms this operation subsequently has his liscense to practice medicine revoked. He took an oath to do no harm...that includes un needed and unwanted surgery."

Cooper,
While I somewhat see where you are coming from, it seems a little far fetched to go after a doctor for un-needed surgery, even un-wanted. It seems that thousands undergo plastic surgery for pure vanity.

 

[Kaeto]

Actually Doctors don't take the Hippocratic Oath anymore.

 

[Mad Turner]

Mad Turner

I hope he gets lead poisoning.

 

[Odd Job]

It is unlikely he will get lead poisoning. The only fluid in the body that has been demonstrated to dissolve lead in sufficient quantities to cause actual lead poisoning, is synovial fluid.
Synovial fluid is found within joint capsules. In the literature there are cases described where lead bullets lodged within the knee or hip joint have been responsible for gradual lead poisoning, and there have been a small number of fatalities involved, often years after the initial injury. So this dude isn't going to suffer a chemical inconvenience from this bullet in his head.
There are only two other potential hazards posed to this man because of a retained bullet:

1) Mechanical
2) Ferromagnetic

A mechanical hazard comes about when a bullet migrates or is naturally propelled from one part of the body to another, such that its new position causes an obstruction to blood flow or an impingement on nerves, or an obstruction to a duct, vessel or joint.
In this case, I can't see any danger from an extracranial subcutaneous bullet like this (assuming the news report is accurate in describing the current location of the bullet).

A ferromagnetic hazard is related to future magnetic resonance imaging of this individual, and depends upon the presence of ferrous components in the core or the jacket of that projectile. This means a steel jacket or a steel insert.
Now in the absence of any knowledge of the component materials of the bullet (which I guarantee you will be the case when it comes to the evaluation of that bullet by 99% of today's medical personnel) the radiographers are going to treat that bullet as ferrous and they will not scan that guy. This assumes that he acknowledges he has been shot when he fills in the pre-scan questions. However the likelihood of this bullet posing a ferromagnetic hazard is reduced if the bullet is indeed a handgun bullet. So far I have only tested three handgun bullets that are ferromagnetic hazards. The majority are not.

So in conclusion, this guy will escape any further injury from this bullet. If he was going to develop an infection from the bullet itself, he would already have done so. He escapes chemical and mechanical hazards associated with this bullet and in all likelihood the radiographers in the future will prevent him from having an MRI scan, so he will escape any ferromagnetic hazard too.

The only threat he faces is any accident, misadventure or infection related to a possible invasive retrieval. Bear in mind that up to now he has submitted himself for retrieval procedures under local anaesthetic.
I have already addressed the issue of general anaesthetic and my view is that such a procedure will not go ahead in this case.

 

[noresttill]

While I somewhat see where you are coming from, it seems a little far fetched to go after a doctor for un-needed surgery, even un-wanted. It seems that thousands undergo plastic surgery for pure vanity.

Yes, but in plastic surgery if the doctor takes and artistic liberty he is in a world of hurt. Comes to mind a doctor deciding to go up one size on a whim with a breast augmentation, that would be unwanted surgery.

Jesse

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

seems

to me the guy went to er to get it removed herself. then bailed because he was poor

 

[Butt Nugget]

Off Job-

You seem very knowledgeable on medical procedures. Is it only small particles of lead that cause problems in the body? i.e. small enough to be inhaled, or small enough that when ingested it is absorbed through the bowels?

I have never placed a lot of stock in the anti-heavy metals crowd (electrical engineer by trade) as they seem to be unreasonably hysterical. I know for a fact that mercury has medical purposes and is essentially only toxic when the fumes of oxidation are inhaled. it is common practice in less developed to prescribe capsulated mercury to those with certain stomach ailments..

Anyway, I don't have a problem with the collection of the evidence from this suspect. The court may authorize the warrant to collect such evidence as the warrant was issued 'by oath or affirmation describing the person and places to be searched, and upon finding probable cause that the suspect is likely to have committed the crime described.'

Obviously if collecting the evidence would likely cause death there must be a clearly compelling reason to rish that, but in this case it seems to be a relatively simple case. i have had brain surgery where parts of my brain tissue were removed (injury from military service) and the surgeons were quite deep in my head, and I suffer no lasting ill effects that cannot be attributed to the origional trauma.. I doubt one as obviously brain-dead as this gang-banger would even notice if half his head were missing...

 

[Juna]

How good is the resolution of modern medical imaging technology, good enough to see the grooves on the bullet?

Not good for that kind of thing. Trust me, there's no way to visualize this bullet's grooves non-invasively.

For Powell, the next step is getting another search warrant.

He said he's convinced the surgery is no more invasive than the one attempted Wednesday.

So now this cop is a surgeon? He somehow is using his medical expertise to determine the necessary surgical approach to extraction of the bullet? I'm sure he's not too concerned about the risk/benefit ratio of the procedure. I don't care how big a dirt ball this kid is, it doesn't justify forcing surgery on someone's head to extract a bullet. That's a very bad, very slippery slope. Talk about unreasonable search & seizure!

I understand that the police want to get the guy, but the means do not always justify the end. The "win at all costs" mentality of our justice & legal systems in this country is downright frightening.

 

[thexrayboy]

Is this an abuse of power by the state. DUH!!!!. It appears that no medical reason to remove the bullet exists. At this point unless this man gives consent it is not ethical, moral, or constitutional for the police to force him to undergo surgery. Is it legal? Depends on what a judge says. But just because a judge says go ahead just makes it technically legal. Not right, not constitutional, not ethical, not just. But of course what transpires in a court room is about whats legal or not. Justice is irrelevant.

Any MD that performs an operation in a situation like this should be banned from practice. You only force someone to undergo an invasive procedure to save a life when facts clearly show that no alternative exists. Cutting someone open to search for possible evidence does not meet any criteria to justify the act.

Sometimes, in order to preserve freedom we as a society must accept that the guilty will go unpunished. To savage our rights to try and get a 100% conviction rate does not bode well for our future as a society.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Well well well....

What do the JBT apologists have to say about this now?


Some of us recall the police wanting to have someone taken to a dentist to have their gold teeth removed. Some people felt that was totally ok. There were a number of people staunchly defending the gestapo...err I mean police in that situation (not all police, the ones who support such madness - I don't stereotype)


I doubt the police will get away with this. But that is not the point. The point is that they WANT to do it. That's pretty sicking. I must say we are near the end of that slippery slope. While we might not have a police-state environment, our institutions have the mentality of a police-state already. That part is in place for certain. Not all police are like this, but a frightening amount espouse such JBTism in some form or another. This act doesn't need to be executed, the evil is already done when the authorities have the desire to do it. Evil isn't an act of the body, it begins from within, from the heart.

 

[Odd Job]

Is it only small particles of lead that cause problems in the body? i.e. small enough to be inhaled, or small enough that when ingested it is absorbed through the bowels?

I don't want to go too much into this lead issue, because it will make us veer too much off the topic, but I will say that the chances of lead poisoning increase with an increase in the size of the lead. Inhaled and ingested lead is not as bad as the same quantity of lead in a joint.

 

[Steak]

No way this can be legal

If they don't have enough evidence to convict him of this crime, they sure don't have enough evidence to put him under the knife in the OR to maybe get evidence that might convict him of a crime.. This could possibly be a death sentence. Many people do not wake up from surgery.

 

[OpFlash]

Thought it funny the big bad gang leader ran home to mama.

 

[dust_101]

Rights are rights, if the kid does not want the surgery then no one should be able to force it on him. Sad to say however that this sounds like one thick-headed criminal and he will probably be bangin' again as soon as this is overwith and will get his at some later point. Hopefully before the previous victim is killed in a retaliation 'robbery'.

 

[deanf]

Hold the little banger down. I'll get it out.

 

[Skywarp]

I'm going to side with most others. There is no way they should be allowed to force someone into general anesthesia and a surgical procedure.

 

[Gifted]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_re_us/bullet_in_head_2
Story in the other thread contains a speck of info that's needed. The one that started this thread didn't mention general for the second procedure. With the risks involved with that, I'd say no. If you can't get it out with local(which has been held as legal), you can't get it.

It'd be sneaky, but I think they should have waited for the conviction on the robbery charge, used medical reasons to have it taken out once he was in, then seek to get it to use for a murder investigation. If he's voluntarily going under the knife, it would be a very different story. Let him have it taken out, then get him. Of course, now that he knows they want it and why, if he really is guilty, he'd find some excuse to keep it in, since then he just has a robbery charge, and not the attempted murder or whatever they'd throw at him.

 

[Gbro]

This thread is on the general board and was linked to this forum, therefore i will post my reply here also.
The 1st thing i thought about was, John Conally took a bullet and kept it.
I think he said it was his. There must be some precidence set by that most famous shooting of the last centry.

Gbro