polish mosin

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1965tinman

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Looking for a 8mm bolt or bolt head for a polish mosin nagant. I've been told a bolt from a bannerman conversion mosin to 30-06 would fit up. Looked all the usual places, Numrich, sarco, gunbroker etc.

I think this bolt will be very difficult to find du to the caliber.
any thoughts?
 
Looking for a 8mm bolt or bolt head for a polish mosin nagant. I've been told a bolt from a bannerman conversion mosin to 30-06 would fit up. Looked all the usual places, Numrich, sarco, gunbroker etc.

I think this bolt will be very difficult to find du to the caliber.
any thoughts?

First of all, welcome to The High Road forum,

Second, it is your rifle and it may have already been mutilated or bubba'ed or it may be untouched in military trim. If untouched, it will be worth much more to leave it alone, a cartridge conversion is problematic, can be a safety hazard, and not function that well. You could spend a lot of money putting a new barrel, changing the contours, stock, etc. and end up with something worth much less with greater expense that what you started with. Want a hunting rifle, CDNN is selling Compass rifles for $270 or so and no conversion will be as accurate, be as easy to scope, etc. You can buy Savage Axis, Axis II, or even splurge another $100 or so for a Ruger American and also do quite well at hunting with it.

If your rifle has been bubba'ed by someone that left the job half done, then options may be more limited. In that case, pictures, descriptions of what you want etc. can lead to better guidance from folks on the board.

In particular, .30-06 Mosin Bannerman conversions of that particular rifle are notorious for being blowup hazards and if you find one on auction sites, the listing is usually accompanied by warnings not the fire them as these are wall hanger grade. Product liability laws not being what they were at the time, Bannerman did not care. But if your conversion goes wrong, absent a gunsmith willing to take on the liability, any safety issue is your problem. There are also some wall hanger emergency WWI type conversions of Mausers that are a) collectible if untampered with, and b) not recommended for firing due to safety concerns.

A Mosin is designed for and to feed a specific rimmed cartridge--the 7.62x54r. In fact, the rifle is designed around the cartridge including the magazine. It is not like the Mauser where it was readily designed to take other cartridges that fit within the cartridge family. If you were to convert a Mosin, the 8x57 Mauser is not a very good cartridge for doing so because it is rimless so feeding problems etc. can ensue because the magazine and interruptor are designed to prevent rimlock on a rimmed cartridge. The cartridge itself has different tapers etc. which can result in feeding problems on the receiver ramp--grinding these areas or to do things like widening the magazine is not recommended for safety reasons. Aside from repro Russian mounts, these are not great rifles to scope either. A Polish Mosin is also more rare and its value will drop with any conversion compared with leaving it alone.

Mosins are not Mausers--want an 8x57 Mauser, get a VZ-24 which will fire the 8x57 quite nicely with excellent workmanship and receivers and barrels abound for this rifle. They also made some in 7x57 Mauser as well. Radom (Polish) made some good mausers but these are pretty rare and in demand so I would recommend leaving one alone if it is in military trim.

The 7.62x54r is a great cartridge that has good flexibility, available ammunition and reloading supplies, and is comparable to our .30-06 in its versatility. You could just leave it in that cartridge and call it a day.
 
In particular, .30-06 Mosin Bannerman conversions of that particular rifle are notorious for being blowup hazards and if you find one on auction sites, the listing is usually accompanied by warnings not the fire them as these are wall hanger grade. Product liability laws not being what they were at the time, Bannerman did not care. But if your conversion goes wrong, absent a gunsmith willing to take on the liability, any safety issue is your problem. There are also some wall hanger emergency WWI type conversions of Mausers that are a) collectible if untampered with, and b) not recommended for firing due to safety concerns.

I would like to make this a sort of public service announcement, particularly poking a stick in the eye of those who revere the past, and use ignorantly use historical dangerous practices to justify similar behavior today. The Bannerman conversions are very dangerous. This is a Bannerman conversion:

hxirVUZ.jpg

The barrel is a pressure vessel, due to the amount of surface area of the cartridge in the chamber, the barrel contains more thrust (pressure times surface area) than the locking mechanism.

0M6d39J.jpg

Combustion pressure increases rapidly and it drops rapidly. I have not scanned a pressure versus distance chart, but this ought to give an idea of just how rapidly pressure drops.

AnNpROa.jpg

OvuSHJk.jpg

The highest pressures are in the chamber area and just in front in the throat, which is why the chamber and throat areas are the thickest part of a typical barrel. You don't need the chamber wall thickness forward of the throat.

This is the chamber of a Westinghouse M1891, and just compare the relative length of the shank to the Bannerman conversion.

KUQ5PYR.jpg

The 7.62 Russian cartridge is much fatter than a 30-06 so Bannerman had to cut the chamber down by half, if not more, to find metal to cut a 30-06 chamber. Most of the chamber was reamed out in the throat and thin barrel sidewalls of the Mosin Nagant barrel. That thin wall section will eventually blow as the tube section there was never intended to hold 40,000 or 50,000 psia.

I remember seeing those Polish Mosin Nagants and at the time I had plenty of Mosin's and did not need another. But I recall they were nicely finished and now, I wish I had purchased one, they were around $150.00 at the time! There are fewer Polish Mosin Nagant rifles around and I would not muck one up, as it will be worth a lot less in a different cartridge. And as Boom-Boom says, the Russian 7.62 X 54R is an fine, powerful cartridge. It is one of the few 1888 designed cartridges to still be in military service today, while I am not a fan of rimmed cartridges in military actions, the 1891 action was specifically designed to feed and extract it, and rimless conversions are so rare, that it is obvious, they probably don't feed well, and are not worth the bother of making the conversion.
 
thanks for the replies
I'm not attempting to convert a 7.62x54r to 8mm. It was already done by the polish in the 1920s. This came back during ww2 and the bolt got lost. This may be one of the rarest mosins.

here is a link
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareWZ919825.htm

Thank goodness. Far too many posters show up here with conversion ideas about grandpa's original milsurp to make it an el Primo bambi blaster.

If you are looking for a display type replica bolt, you can most probably have a machinist do the necessary work--the bolt face would have to be altered obviously, the firing pin and bolt body shortened, and you might have do do some alterations with the cocking piece and sear. It might run you a bit but mechanically (not necessarily safetywise) it could be done.

Apparently a poster named Nirvana has a US Army report on the conversion with technical information and pix that might be useful if you try to replicate the bolt.

https://forums.gunboards.com/showth...ort-on-Polish-WZ91-98-25-8mm-Mosin-Conversion

Is your rifle overbored or new barrel? Apparently the Poles did both. Firing the beast might not be prudent in any case due to barrel setback. Reading up on the conversions, the Poles used a two piece interruptor for feeding and not all of them used new barrels which means a far amount trimmed from a not so thick barrel and perhaps from the receiver itself along with the ramp.

The most likely source for any original parts would be Ebay Mosin part sellers in the Baltic Republics or Poland with the potential problems for importation--bolts, I believe, are one of those problematic parts. It is possible through the private messaging of Ebay that you might be able to contact a seller via that way by a private message to have them look for stuff for you. I believe that we also have a Finn THR member that posts from time to time that might could help and Finland often have some odds and ends Mosin parts sellers on ebay.

Absent that, try Popperts, look at Century International as they bought Springfield Sporter's remaining stock, Sarco has some unclassified stuff that you have to call them about but it could be misidentified, etc. The online parts sellers are largely picked over so what you want is the more obscure ones such as Allegheny Armory or places like that.
 
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thanks for the replies
I'm not attempting to convert a 7.62x54r to 8mm. It was already done by the polish in the 1920s. This came back during ww2 and the bolt got lost. This may be one of the rarest mosins.

here is a link
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareWZ919825.htm

That was interesting, according to your link the barrels were new, not rechambered. If you have one, finding a bolt head is going to be a challenge. Given that the 8mm bolt face is smaller than a 7.62 X 54R, you simply can't take a Russian bolt head and ream it out. Poland was a nation state and could afford to pay industry to make new barrels, bolt heads, and probably anything else they needed. Still, I will bet the conversion was not a success as the action was milled to feed 7.62 X 54R cartridges not 8 X 57.
 
I believe it is a new barrel because it is stepped similar to a mauser. I've not seen a mosin stepped like that. I thought about a mock bolt but would rather have a functional bolt.I believe a bannerman bolt may work. I'm thinking some mausers were converted to 8mm-06 and I don't think the bolt was altered much. So my thought is a bannerman bolt in 30-06 might work as long as headspace was checked and verified
 
I believe it is a new barrel because it is stepped similar to a mauser. I've not seen a mosin stepped like that. I thought about a mock bolt but would rather have a functional bolt.I believe a bannerman bolt may work. I'm thinking some mausers were converted to 8mm-06 and I don't think the bolt was altered much. So my thought is a bannerman bolt in 30-06 might work as long as headspace was checked and verified

A Bannerman 30-06 bolt head face might work as the 8x57 and .30-06 are twins in the case head department--the gunboards post link I posted above has a discussion by someone that has one and basically the bolt face was deepened on the conversion with the person claiming that the rim of the bolt head was bent inward to account for the smaller case head size.

From the pictures, the bolt head shank might have been reduced in length rather than the bolt body or it may have simply required only deepening the bolt head. Never heard of a Bannerman 8mm-06 Mosin conversion but knowing those clowns, they were willing to put anything out the door for a buck so who knows. But, the .30-06 is a longer cartridge than the 8x57 so even a Bannerman bolt might require alteration to fit. I still would not fire the thing as it looks like there is a lack of information about overall safety.

One of the issues is that if you grind the bolt head deeper, assuming normal case hardening techniques, you have ground through the hardened layer and need to reheat treat the part. I've forgotten what little that I know about Russian metallurgy at the time and apparently there is not much knowledge over the issue of Mosin steel and heat treatment. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums/mosins-what-steels-t24340.html
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?588977-Mosin-Nagant-metallurgy
 
I've seen photos of the 8mm bolthead and the 7.62x54r bolthead. It appears that a new bolthead was made for the 8mm. Didn't look like there was a enough steel to modify a existing bolthead to 8mm. The bannerman bolthead has a small ring welded on to the face to accept the 30-06 rim
 
Try Russian Mosin Nagant Forum.com
Do not phrase it like you did here, come right out and say what gun it is for, they know what it is over there, and someone might have a lead for you.
The three forums mentioned by boom-boom have plenty of knowledgeable people on them also.

thanks for the replies
I'm not attempting to convert a 7.62x54r to 8mm. It was already done by the polish in the 1920s. This came back during ww2 and the bolt got lost. This may be one of the rarest mosins.

here is a link
http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRareWZ919825.htm

Be sure to include this info in your first post, not later, especially on RMNF. It is a preservationist forum.
 
After a bit more research, the belgians also converted a mosin nagant to 8mm. This is called a blindee conversion. Had no idea this was done.
 
Polish army experiments were never noted for great success. Unless you want to use horsed cavalry to charge tanks, then go ahead. You may as well have a dangerous rifle too.
 
Interesting thread.

I'll call this whole saga of the Polish Mosin 91/98 the thing I learned today.

I see in one of Ian's Forgotten Weapons that he reviews a Bannerman's Sporter and note that the bolt head is not beveled at the nose as the OP's attached, very informative, link shows the Polish unit to be. Not insurmountable but not the same.

A Mosin bolt head is fairly straight forward lathe/grinder/mill work followed by careful heat treat. The extractor and its attendant offset must be closely attended to though. I made two of differing calibers in the past. No need to go into those projects beyond that to save the distraction.

Before cutting new heads, I also ground, welded and re-cut a couple existing Mosin heads. They worked well but the look of the newly machined ones was much prettier and the others went to pals following the projects.

Todd.
 
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