cdself
Member
Thanks David for the input. Looks like it is doing much better than mine right now, so I'll give your load a try. I think I have some 4350 at home.
Poorly shooting rifle - my plan
- Thread starter cdself
- Start date
- Status
cdself
Member
Range report
I loaded 22 rounds of ammunition with components I had laying around. Federal 210 primers, IMR4350, and Nosler 150 gr ballistic tip bullets.
Weather conditions are 55 F with 5-10 mph wind that's inconsistent. Range is 100 yards with a solid rest.
I fired 2 foulers and then 4 5-shot groups.
First group used bullets loaded touching the lands and netted a 2" group, with 4 shots in 0.8" and the other widening the group the 2".
Second group was 10 thousandths off and was 1.13" total. 4 shots in 0.5" with the 5th opening up the group.
Third group was 20 thousandths off and was 1.24" total. No real outliers here.
Fourth group was 30 thousandths off and was 1.05". Again, no real outliers.
I overlaid all 20 shots and the group was 2.5" center to center. If you take out one round, the 19/20 shot group is right at 1.4". This was with different lengths as noted above and a barrel that is a heavy spotter weight and was getting hot after 22 shots in 15 minutes.
All in all, much better, but still not a tack driver. It is definitely hunting accurate and I was happy to see my fouling shots would fit in the overall group nicely which is always a plus for hunting ammo.
Now, I can do some laddering with powder weight and move closer to max loads to see if I can get consistent groups at 1" or a little better for 5 shots.
I loaded 22 rounds of ammunition with components I had laying around. Federal 210 primers, IMR4350, and Nosler 150 gr ballistic tip bullets.
Weather conditions are 55 F with 5-10 mph wind that's inconsistent. Range is 100 yards with a solid rest.
I fired 2 foulers and then 4 5-shot groups.
First group used bullets loaded touching the lands and netted a 2" group, with 4 shots in 0.8" and the other widening the group the 2".
Second group was 10 thousandths off and was 1.13" total. 4 shots in 0.5" with the 5th opening up the group.
Third group was 20 thousandths off and was 1.24" total. No real outliers here.
Fourth group was 30 thousandths off and was 1.05". Again, no real outliers.
I overlaid all 20 shots and the group was 2.5" center to center. If you take out one round, the 19/20 shot group is right at 1.4". This was with different lengths as noted above and a barrel that is a heavy spotter weight and was getting hot after 22 shots in 15 minutes.
All in all, much better, but still not a tack driver. It is definitely hunting accurate and I was happy to see my fouling shots would fit in the overall group nicely which is always a plus for hunting ammo.
Now, I can do some laddering with powder weight and move closer to max loads to see if I can get consistent groups at 1" or a little better for 5 shots.
Attachments
Sunray
Member
"...my groups were awful..." Lot of subjectivity involved. A consistent 3.5 inch group at 100 is fine for deer. The .280 isn't a target cartridge.
Anyway, slug the barrel.
This is what Shilen uses for 7mm's.
7mm/.284
- 8" for all bullets-customer discretion 180 gr. VLD
- 8" * Ratchet rifled 4 groove
- 9" for bullets heavier than 140 gr.
- 11" for bullets up to 140 gr.
- 12" * special for high velocity
Anyway, slug the barrel.
This is what Shilen uses for 7mm's.
7mm/.284
- 8" for all bullets-customer discretion 180 gr. VLD
- 8" * Ratchet rifled 4 groove
- 9" for bullets heavier than 140 gr.
- 11" for bullets up to 140 gr.
- 12" * special for high velocity
cdself
Member
Sunray
3.5" may be fine for hunting in some conditions, but if you get to a 250 yard shot, it's not really good enough for me. If I'm off 6" and the guns is off 10" in the same direction, I could miss completely or worse yet, wound an animal in a way causing death a day or two later so that tracking it would be impractical. The bigger issue is that this is seemingly quality equipment and off the shelf rifles these days regularly shoot groups 1/2 that size. This rifle hated something about those 140 Remmy Core-lokt.
In my opinion, 3.5" groups are pretty poor out of a heavy sporter bolt action and I get some joy out of making it shoot better. I think I am convinced that it can shoot well enough for most hunting conditions with my first hand load which is a big step forward. I would like it to shoot better than that, even if it's not necessary.
3.5" may be fine for hunting in some conditions, but if you get to a 250 yard shot, it's not really good enough for me. If I'm off 6" and the guns is off 10" in the same direction, I could miss completely or worse yet, wound an animal in a way causing death a day or two later so that tracking it would be impractical. The bigger issue is that this is seemingly quality equipment and off the shelf rifles these days regularly shoot groups 1/2 that size. This rifle hated something about those 140 Remmy Core-lokt.
In my opinion, 3.5" groups are pretty poor out of a heavy sporter bolt action and I get some joy out of making it shoot better. I think I am convinced that it can shoot well enough for most hunting conditions with my first hand load which is a big step forward. I would like it to shoot better than that, even if it's not necessary.
cdself
Member
Knocking on the door, Fremmer. Considering I loaded that ammo in 45 minutes, I think I may can get there with a little more diligence. I checked case length before charging, none were out of spec, but they were not all the same either. I'll trim, sort the brass a little better, buy some more bullets and try again with some varying powder charges. It's unlikely I hit the sweet spot in powder on my first outing with a conservative charge of 4350. I'll bump it up and fire three shot groups from where I am to max-charge looking for a sweet spot. I bet I can get 0.75 out of this rifle, which isn't world-beating, but it's not bad either.
cdself
Member
Old - but wanted to give an update
I've tried two more bullets and a variety of lengths and powders. Overall, it's still not as good as I would hope. Nothing really better than what I have already posted. I'm sending the rifle to a precision gunsmith to rechamber to 280 AI. That cartridge fits a little better in my limited battery of rifles as my 260 rem will be my white-tail rifle, this would be my backup and go-to for anything a little bigger (if that ever happened). I have 24 Norma brass that I just fire formed to the old chamber that might be helpful since their brass is pretty well respected. We'll see if this help. Update in another few months after it comes back as with a different chamber and crown.
I've tried two more bullets and a variety of lengths and powders. Overall, it's still not as good as I would hope. Nothing really better than what I have already posted. I'm sending the rifle to a precision gunsmith to rechamber to 280 AI. That cartridge fits a little better in my limited battery of rifles as my 260 rem will be my white-tail rifle, this would be my backup and go-to for anything a little bigger (if that ever happened). I have 24 Norma brass that I just fire formed to the old chamber that might be helpful since their brass is pretty well respected. We'll see if this help. Update in another few months after it comes back as with a different chamber and crown.
Al(2506)
Member
280 rifle reloading
I've reloaded ammo for a lot of different cal. rifles, tried everything in the books. I'm talking about brass prep, trimmed, fire formed, neck sized, annealed, etc. the best thing that showed a real results, was uniforming the primer pocket depth. Hope this helps, also use the same brand of brass for your testing. Al
I've reloaded ammo for a lot of different cal. rifles, tried everything in the books. I'm talking about brass prep, trimmed, fire formed, neck sized, annealed, etc. the best thing that showed a real results, was uniforming the primer pocket depth. Hope this helps, also use the same brand of brass for your testing. Al
You indicated that the rifle is bedded fully. Is the barrel channel tightly fitted to the barrel, or is there a pressure pad at the end of the forend?
You can check the action bedding by removing the screws and see if you can raise the barrel out of the channel slightly and try moving the barrel side to side to see if the action is as tight to the bedding as it appeared.
If the barrel is tightly bedded to the forend, try sanding the barrel channel to create at least 1/16" between barrel and channel. Also, there should be at least two thicknesses of masking tape clearance between the front, sides and bottom of the a recoil plate.
The last bedding trick is to pillar-bed the action.
The scope and mounts are the next items to check. You may want to install another scope to assure that the original scope is working okay.
Loads are the third thing to check and can make a half-inch rifle look like a two-incher if it's shooting something it doesn't like.
You can check the action bedding by removing the screws and see if you can raise the barrel out of the channel slightly and try moving the barrel side to side to see if the action is as tight to the bedding as it appeared.
If the barrel is tightly bedded to the forend, try sanding the barrel channel to create at least 1/16" between barrel and channel. Also, there should be at least two thicknesses of masking tape clearance between the front, sides and bottom of the a recoil plate.
The last bedding trick is to pillar-bed the action.
The scope and mounts are the next items to check. You may want to install another scope to assure that the original scope is working okay.
Loads are the third thing to check and can make a half-inch rifle look like a two-incher if it's shooting something it doesn't like.
cdself
Member
Thanks guys
I've sent the rifle off and it's ready. I should get it back in the next week. I do have a primer pocket uniformer, but I can't honestly say that I used it. I'll check on that Al.
As for the bedding, there was no pressure point on the front of the stock. I do have a Model 7 that I'm working on to remove one of those. I'll check the clearance. Not sure if the recoil lug has the clearance you described. Any way to check that?
Thanks again.
Chuck
I've sent the rifle off and it's ready. I should get it back in the next week. I do have a primer pocket uniformer, but I can't honestly say that I used it. I'll check on that Al.
As for the bedding, there was no pressure point on the front of the stock. I do have a Model 7 that I'm working on to remove one of those. I'll check the clearance. Not sure if the recoil lug has the clearance you described. Any way to check that?
Thanks again.
Chuck
gamestalker
member
Hmm, I wonder if the original owner followed break in protocol? Might try stripping it completely down, and then take it back through a proper break in, that can sometimes work.
GS
GS
cdself
Member
Got it back yesterday - looks good
The guys at S&S did a fine job on my rifle and I now have a 280 AI.
I'm happy the rifle wasn't damaged - I had them ship USPS to my FFL and the case was DESTROYED! Rifle seems fine.
I had them thread the barrel for a suppressor or brake, rechamber, recrown and reblue. I hope to go Saturday to shoot it and I started working on my Norma brass in prep for fire forming. I checked runout with my dies and I think I'll get a Wilson seater to make sure I'm producing concentric ammo. The stuff I checked last night I was loading had 3 to 5 thousandths runout. My 223 rounds are between 1 and 2 thousandths. Some of that is a function of the bullet length and where you measure. The longer bullets, by default, magnify the runout if you check about half way from case rim to bullet tip which is generally where I place the mic.
I checked clearance and it is fully floated. I'll do the following based on the comments above:
(1) clean the dickens out of it - again
(2) pull the action from the stock and check for play
(3) tighten stock with torque wrench and keep records of settings
(4) fire form this weekend
(5) test in the new week or two and start working toward a hunting load.
The guys at S&S did a fine job on my rifle and I now have a 280 AI.
I'm happy the rifle wasn't damaged - I had them ship USPS to my FFL and the case was DESTROYED! Rifle seems fine.
I had them thread the barrel for a suppressor or brake, rechamber, recrown and reblue. I hope to go Saturday to shoot it and I started working on my Norma brass in prep for fire forming. I checked runout with my dies and I think I'll get a Wilson seater to make sure I'm producing concentric ammo. The stuff I checked last night I was loading had 3 to 5 thousandths runout. My 223 rounds are between 1 and 2 thousandths. Some of that is a function of the bullet length and where you measure. The longer bullets, by default, magnify the runout if you check about half way from case rim to bullet tip which is generally where I place the mic.
I checked clearance and it is fully floated. I'll do the following based on the comments above:
(1) clean the dickens out of it - again
(2) pull the action from the stock and check for play
(3) tighten stock with torque wrench and keep records of settings
(4) fire form this weekend
(5) test in the new week or two and start working toward a hunting load.
cdself
Member
Fireforming 280 Ackley
I loaded 24 rounds of ammo and headed to the range today for a 45 minute fire forming extravaganza. I used mostly IMR 4831 with just a few rounds filled with IMR 4350 as I had already made those up. I used a Berger VLD 168 grain bullet in the lands about 10 thousandths to ensure a good fire formed case. Powder charges with the 4831 were laddered ever 0.2 grains just for giggles at a relatively mild factory 280 charge. The primary purpose of the afternoon was fire forming some brass to my new Ackley chamber which has some capacity that I can't use until I get some brass that fits it. Overall I was very pleased with the first outing after the rechamber. I only fired one 5 shot group with a pretty hot barrel and it measured 0.88" C to C (4350). The laddered 4831 was used for a couple of 3 shot groups. I'm including my best group here. I don't pretend it will do this all the time, but considering this was my first day and I was fire forming, it does seem that I'm getting somewhere.
Now that I have some cases, I'll have to head back to the range to see if I can repeat this performance (or get close to it). Overall, I'm now very pleased. S and S in Argyle TX seemed to do pretty good work and I feel I have a chance at a nice hunting rig that can shoot sub-MOA.
I'll probably end my updates here. If anything odd happens, I may give a final update, but thanks to all for their help and comments. Many were helpful.
I loaded 24 rounds of ammo and headed to the range today for a 45 minute fire forming extravaganza. I used mostly IMR 4831 with just a few rounds filled with IMR 4350 as I had already made those up. I used a Berger VLD 168 grain bullet in the lands about 10 thousandths to ensure a good fire formed case. Powder charges with the 4831 were laddered ever 0.2 grains just for giggles at a relatively mild factory 280 charge. The primary purpose of the afternoon was fire forming some brass to my new Ackley chamber which has some capacity that I can't use until I get some brass that fits it. Overall I was very pleased with the first outing after the rechamber. I only fired one 5 shot group with a pretty hot barrel and it measured 0.88" C to C (4350). The laddered 4831 was used for a couple of 3 shot groups. I'm including my best group here. I don't pretend it will do this all the time, but considering this was my first day and I was fire forming, it does seem that I'm getting somewhere.
Now that I have some cases, I'll have to head back to the range to see if I can repeat this performance (or get close to it). Overall, I'm now very pleased. S and S in Argyle TX seemed to do pretty good work and I feel I have a chance at a nice hunting rig that can shoot sub-MOA.
I'll probably end my updates here. If anything odd happens, I may give a final update, but thanks to all for their help and comments. Many were helpful.
Attachments
69Precision
Member
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2015
- Messages
- 92
If you hunt woods maybe 3.5" is ok. You don't need to drive tacks but a savage axis from Walmart will easily do half that, so no reason to settle for 3.5" groups.
Last edited:
- Status
