POS “Blues”: “They Are Among Us!”

[Mad Magyar]

You’ve seen the familiar post, “The worst POS I’ve ever owned”. No explanation is ever given. I imagine some have good intentions, however, are they genuine? Who are these people? With anonymity & nom de plumes on the Internet, one can see how easy it is to manipulate gun views in either direction. What brought this home for me was an interesting post & reply recently on a forum. The contributor mentioned how he was constantly experiencing FTF’s in an expensive pistol and was close to using the “P” word. It seems the service dept. of this mfgr was slow in reacting. Almost immediately, two posts later, a gun rep from this mfgr was telling how they would take care & remediate the matter. By the moniker of the sender, you would have thought it was your average pistolero! I almost fell off my chair! “They’re Here!” Why is it that some pistols are mentioned more frequently than others and are constantly being christened as the BEST in such & such category? Have you noticed when someone complains of malfunctions on a Sig, Kahr, Kimber, CZ, and a few others that all the apologists, perhaps publicists, come out & give every damn excuse in the book, most common the “break-in”, or, “Oh, just one bad mag or extractor”, etc. However, when other pistols have problems, the POS stuff comes out: “You get what you pay for”, ad nauseam. And, certain guns are always listed in the POS categories…No, they aren’t all bad, but we are constantly being reminded….Are we being manipulated by the gun industry propagandists? Am I being paranoid?
Let me say that it makes good business sense to have someone monitor the gun forums not only seeing “what’s what”, but possibly to influence public opinion by promoting/glorifying a certain pistol and denigrating the others….I monitor about six gun forums using different monikers, and there is one in particular where the vast majority of the moderators are gun writers for the popular gun magazines. If you mention anything negative about a certain pistol/ammo that was reviewed, glowing of course, by any of them; they come down on you like a “sledge-hammer”. Of course, being paid by mfgr’s for the review & ads, one must realize who’s buttering their bread. BTW, I consider gun writers an extension of the gun/ammo industry. What say you to all this?

 

[MCgunner]

It's because the gun world is a traditionists world most often. Anything new is a POS while theirs is tried and true. I keep an open mind, tried lots of different guns, own lots of different guns. I have my opinions, too, but I own more than just 1911s or Smith revolvers.

I don't know that I have EVER owned a totally POS worthless firearm. LOL Oh, wait, yes I did, a RG .22 revolver. I think it was about 20 bucks. Get what you pay for....ROFLMAO!

 

[bakert]

Kinda funny. I've seen posts railing about a certain gun being a POS or a certain ammo being so dirty that I've been using for years without any problems at all. Seen a lot of people run Rugers down for one reason or other but I like 'em and my everyday carry gun is a P97 which suits me just fine.
Hell, MCgunner, Although it wasn't much of a gun, I carried one of those little RG revolvers in a tackle box or hunting coat pocket for years before it finally gave up the ghost.

 

[JohnKSa]

Have you noticed when someone complains of malfunctions on a Sig, Kahr, Kimber, CZ, and a few others that all the apologists, perhaps publicists, come out & give every damn excuse in the book, most common the “break-in”, or, “Oh, just one bad mag or extractor”, etc. However, when other pistols have problems, the POS stuff comes out: “You get what you pay for”, ad nauseam.

Gotta be careful here... Sure, you definitely get some people either making excuses for or condemning a product line purely as a result of personal preference, but that doesn't mean that ANY negative comments or ANY endorsements of a product are ALWAYS personal preference. Tain't so.

There is a huge difference in getting the occasional lemon from an otherwise reputable manufacturer of good quality firearms and getting a representative product from a manufacturer using materials, designs and manufacturing techniques that are UNIVERSALLY accepted to be substandard.

There is such a thing as quality and knowledgeable/discriminating consumers know it when they see it.

For example:

Some people don't like plastic firearm components, but anyone who is truly objective knows by now that plastic components, when used and designed properly have significant advantages and virtually no disadvantages. So, in spite of PREFERENCE, the evidence is out there and anyone who is objective must accept that the use of plastic parts, when properly done will not harm the functionality or durability of the firearm and therefore, is not evidence of low quality.

On the other hand, zamak (cast zinc alloy pot metal) is UNIVERSALLY accepted to be a substandard material. While it may be possible to make a reliable and functional firearm using a zamak slide (and although one can make the case that there is a legitimate need for this kind of product), ultimately durability will suffer. As a result a knowledgeable consumer will claim that such a firearm is an example of substandard quality and is likely to take a somewhat dim view of the product and company.

 

[possum]

Mad Magyar,
Very interesting post, i have never even thought about some of the possiblities but the more i think about it the more i tend to think, that very well could be true. i get alot of complaints from people especially the security people on post when i am at teh range and they are trying to qualify with thier Glock 19's. one female in particular was having a tuff time and told me "these glocks are crap" i of course am not a Glock guy but do believe they are fine pieces of equipment, said " what is the problem"? she went on to tell me that it was jamming and just not shooting right. you also have to know that most of these people are military spouses and most don't have very much experience at shooting at all. i finally figured out with working with her that she was limp wristing and that was causing here problems with the malfunction bit. as far as not shooting well i helped here with her trigger squezze and that fixed that problem, and she went on to qualify. i kow with kahr's they suggest 200rds befor they are completly reliable and some guns of course have a tight slide to frame connection and you need to get them loosened up, but mostly i have seen that the problem lies in the operator, and you have to take what people say with a grain of salt.

 

[Old Dog]

Am I being paranoid?

Yes.

The word "apologists" is used all too often (and not generally appropriately) in this forum.

First of all, who cares what the gunwriters (who are published in magazines almost wholly dependent on advertising revenue, not newstand sales or subscriptions) say?

Second, who cares what internet forum posters say -- especially when they (1) post under screen names; (2) routinely bash the same manufacturers over and over and never give any valid reasons for said bashing; and, (3) are almost always merely reflecting their personal, and thoroughly subjective, preferences and opinions?

As JohnKSa says, if you're gonna talk pot-metal (zinc, etc.) guns such as Lorcins, Brycos, Raven, Phoenix Arms, Davis, Hi-Point ... many would say your odds of getting a POS would be good should you buy one of these ...

But there are many inexpensive firearms made by firms such as Bersa, Rossi, Star, etc., that are pretty decent, reliable guns. I've never declared any gun a POS without having ever owned one or shooting one extensively (unlike many around here who are quick to jump in and bash guns by companies such as Taurus -- and then admitting later that they've never even owned one -- although a buddy did once, and didn't like it).

There are people on this forum who routinely bash certain companies (Colt, Kimber, Smith and Wesson and Taurus come to mind as being heavily bashed hereabouts). Frankly, if they've never owned the guns, can't tell us why the guns were bad, never even sent the guns back to the factory for evaluation and repair, if necessary -- these people have no credibility, hence should simply be ignored.

 

[Nortonics]

Sounds like a certain 1911 forum where at least 50% of the participation is from idiots that think they're brilliant, and the owner and numerous mods aren't far behind that. Pretty much has become a worthless forum because it's so difficult finding accurate info in-between all the useless BS and straight-up incorrect info..

 

[MCgunner]

On the other hand, zamak (cast zinc alloy pot metal) is UNIVERSALLY accepted to be a substandard material. While it may be possible to make a reliable and functional firearm using a zamak slide (and although one can make the case that there is a legitimate need for this kind of product), ultimately durability will suffer. As a result a knowledgeable consumer will claim that such a firearm is an example of substandard quality and is likely to take a somewhat dim view of the product and company.

Even zinc alloy has its place IMHO. I had a little zinc alloy RG .25 that worked very well. It was cheap and not all that accurate at longer ranges than up close defense range, but it never jammed, always fired, and at the time was a good solution for me for self defense. However, yeah, sure, the pot metal guns ain't gonna last as long, just a fact. But, then, at the prices they go for, they're quite easily replaced.

I have a gun I've off and on hated, but then came back to like. It's an HP.22, Phoenix Arms, and a pot metal cheap gun. I wouldn't have much of a decent opinion of the thing at all if it weren't so compact, fairly reliable, and bloomin' ACCURATE beyond belief! How a 3" pocket cheapo .22 can fire stingers into 3" at 25 yards straight to POA is beyond comprehension, but it does. Accuracy always wins my friendship. Even though I have to replace a recoil spring in that thing now and then (about 2 bucks) to keep it going, heck, so what? When it wears out, I'll probably buy another one at a lousy hundred bucks a shot. I have the 5" barrel for it, too, and it shoots an extra inch more accurate at 25 yards believe it or not, with ammo it likes, Federal in its case.

Anyway, I like owning a gun, no matter what it's made out of or how cheap it is or how short its life expectancy (has gone through five or six 550 round packs of ammo and some boxes of stingers and is still fine), is capable of being swallowed by a pocket and accurate enough to shoot rabbits at 25 yards. I don't have another gun quite so small with obvious outdoor uses. I would never carry the thing for defense, but for shooting snakes off a pond it has already proved valuable. I mean, often I can take a kit gun, no biggy, when I'm out, but sometimes I want something more concealable for one reason or another and this little cheapo fits the niche.

Anyway, point is, I don't discount ANYTHING as junk until I actually USE it. That's why I don't often call any gun junk unless it was junk for me, and to be honest, I've not owned a gun that I couldn't find some things good about except that RG .22 revolver. Even my 1911s would feed ball and that AMT fed a cast SWC I load and was pretty accurate. I used it to win money at a local monthly shoot a club a couple of counties from here used to put on and probably paid for it with winnings. It did take some gunsmithing to get the thing to go and when I gripe about it, it is because I feel like I pay that much money for a firearm, it should work right out of the box. I got it to peculate, though, cause at the time we had a really good gunsmith locally. He passed away of Cancer some years back and I really miss his skills. He was a nice man, too. My Ruger P90 is even more accurate, has never burped on a round no matter what the load, and never required a Smith. I've won quite a few shoots with it, too. It's target accurate right out of the box and cost less than that Hardballer. So, if I gripe about the AMT or 1911s in general, it's not because I think they're POSs, but just because I don't like carrying cocked and locked or carrying anything that heavy, and I think you can get a lot more gun for a lot less money. But, if a good 1911 hangs your hooter like nothing else does, it's your money! They're not junk even if I don't care much for 'em anymore.

I think I rambled too much on this post already....

 

[paul45]

Sounds like a certain 1911 forum where at least 50% of the participation is from idiots that think they're brilliant, and the owner and numerous mods aren't far behind that. Pretty much has become a worthless forum because it's so difficult finding accurate info in-between all the useless BS and straight-up incorrect info

.Here is the problem for me....you call 50% of those participants idiots, you insult the owner and the mods.....how do we know you are not the idiot ??

 

[Nortonics]

Visit the forum and figure it out yourself. Matter-O-fact, you'd fit right in with your consistently worthless one-lining, troll style, tasteless insult posts throughout just about every thread you comment on, here and elsewhere.

All it takes is a quick search of your previous posts to prove that out...

 

[CAnnoneer]

The magic word is "substantiation". If the basher cannot substantiate his attack by meaningful technical details, it is clearly belief rather than fact.

The damage to a company's name is real. Newbies and non-technical people can easily be swayed in their decisions by cheap propaganda, be it positive or negative. I used to eye Taurus with some suspicion partly because of the massive smokescreen put up by its detractors. Now I own one and love it.

 

[MCgunner]

I own two Tauri and love 'em. I own a Kel Tec P11 and shoot the thing very well. It has an awesome smooth trigger, if a little longish. It's easy to place shots at long range with, and even does decent against the competition in IDPA. It has NEVER jammed and I've had it 9 years now. It's my number one carry gun. Now, I'd never have bought one going on some folks' trashing of the gun. I think a lot of that has to do with the polymer frame. Some of it is the people that cannot and will not learn to use a DA gun. Learning to shoot DA takes a little effort and practice and lots of guys are too lazy to bother. I prefer DA for the safety of the gun, myself, and the fact that it is safe to carry without having to rely on manual safetys. It's ready to go right out of the holster. Some of it might come from the Grendel P10 which was Kelgren's first company. It didn't work too well, from what I can gather. I have a P12, though, and it's never jammed and is reasonably accurate and going on that experience, I bought a P11 right after they came out and was VERY happy with it and still am.

You've got to take the criticism with a grain of salt. You have to look at the critic, decide maybe he's a 1911 guy and wishes all other guns would disappear. There are those out there. Maybe he's a knee jerk plastic hater. Maybe he's a die hard revolver guy. But, bottom line is I don't believe any one person when I am looking for advice and I might just buy the gun anyway and decide for myself.

Another brand I own three of now and have owned another three in the past and loved 'em all and gets trashed by the Smith and Wesson or nothing crowd is Rossi. I've never had a truly bad experience with Rossis. I consider 'em as servicable, maybe not the smooth trigger and such, but as servicable as any other revolver in the category. I've got a M511 .22 kit gun that I'd take over any S&W kit gun just because I know how unreal accurate the thing is. Its DA trigger isn't that smooth, but I don't shoot a kit gun DA that much anyway except just for DA practice and it's fine for that. When Rossi is brought up on the boards, though, you'll get the S&W or nothing crowd out in droves to trash the brand. They've maybe never even seen a Rossi much less fired it, but it's junk because they say so.... At the range, during shoots, I enjoy beating guys like this with my "junk". I've done it more'n once. The gun won't shoot itself. You have to learn to shoot it, after all.

That 1911 is only as good as the man behind the trigger and when you get beat by my P90, well, what does that tell ya? Go ahead, trash Rugers, I'm keepin' mine! I've shot it so much I know it well. I shoot it better than I ever did either of my 1911s of the past. It works better for me, love the thing. You can call it junk all you want, but I know better.

 

[Just Jim]

Howdy Boys

Well let us look at the new Smith & Wesson lock system. Personal exspearience with them is that I have never had a failure in a heavy gun. I have seen a failure to fire in the lightweight guns during an IDPA match and my gunsmith says he has had a couple of light weight guns come in where the safety went on by itself.

Now does that make it a POC ? Not for me yet but time will tell

jj

 

[paul45]

Visit the forum and figure it out yourself. Matter-O-fact, you'd fit right in with your consistently worthless one-lining, troll style, tasteless insult posts throughout just about every thread you comment on, here and elsewhere.

Isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black.... .....After you call hundreds and hundreds of people idiots, insult the owner and mods.....you insult me ?? Hey, thats fine, but apparently you dont mind looking like a massive hypocrite and troll....

 

[P95Carry]

Enough!