Possible ditching of the AR15 Dissy for the SU-16C

[Eb1]

I like the thought of the lightweight and storage capability of the Kel-Tec SU-16C.
Built in bi-pod, takes 30 round AR magazines, built in rails. It just seems like a decent light weight 5.56 platform.
My AR15 weights like 9 lbs, doesn't fold up for storage, takes a lot of room. Doesn't have a bi-pod. Totally thinking about making this change.

I am also thinking of getting a Sub-2000 Gen 2 9mm. The only Glock 9mm I can shoot well is the Glock 26 so that doesn't help, but I'd get the Glock mag version just because of magazine capacity allowable by Glock mags. I'd keep my 2007 model Springfield XD 9mm.

I figure if I sell my AR15 and my .25-06, I'd have enough to fund the change, and still have 30-30s, a .223, and other rifles for deer hunting, but wouldn't have to lug around that large AR any longer, and if needed would have a pistol caliber carbine for special purposes.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[rcmodel]

Yes I do.

1. You sell two good rifles, and buy two sub-standard rifles?
You will be sorry sooner, if not later.

I like Kel-Tec, and own a couple.
But they are what they are, which is sub-standard to the quality you are accustomed to.


2. The folding bi-pod on the SU-16 warps the barrel upward and changes the zero when it is used to support the rifle. So people soon learn they are not usable for accurate shooting.

3. You don't need a bipod anyway once you learn to shoot a rifle.

4. AR-15's don't have to weigh 9 pounds.
My old Colt carbine weighs less then 6 with a full 20 round mag.

5. Why don't you just spend half the money and buy a new light weight pencil barrel upper for the AR you already have?

6. Don't do it, as you will be sorry, sooner, if not later!!

rc

 

[Eb1]

Sounds logical. I might have had a moment there. I can shoot the rifle (AR) without the bi-pod. I have never had one just an old military sling.
The .25-06 is my favorite deer rifle along with the 30-30s I have grown up with. I was looking for something different, and the only way was to sell some to get new. I will probably regret it if I do it.
Best to sleep on it over this next deer season. Thanks for the advise, rcmodel.

 

[Inebriated]

If your AR weighs 9 pounds, you might want to fix that before switching to anything KelTec...

It's no work at all to get a 6 pound AR.

 

[Eb1]

It is an A2 stock/Lower/M4 barrel with rifle length hand guards. I am guessing 7 to 9 lbs load. Oh with an Aimpoint on it as well. With a full 30 round mag of 77 grain SMK along with powder it seems like an 8+ lbs rifle.
30 rounds is 3000+ grains nearly 1/2 a lbs. The Aimpoint isn't light, and the 16" M4 barrel along with the rifle length hand guards is pretty heavy. Then an A2 stock instead of a 6 pos telescopic stock. Not some plastic stock, but a nice firm stock.

I'll put it on the scale when I get home. With a loaded 30 round magazine. Unless I change the barrel, gas port, and using 55 grain bullets with a telescopic buttstock, and swap the MOE rifle length hand guards for some ultra lite aluminum quad rail or Troy hand guard. I don't see how I can get it lighter without buying an enitrely new AR.

My AR is accurate with all the ammo I shoot in it. I am getting tired of the platform right now. Right now I can see a pistol caliber carbine being more suitable, and fun to shoot. Something in a straight walled cartridge. I love shooting the 30-30 loaded down with 125 grain FNHPs @ 2150 fps, but don't enjoy neck down cases. Same as loading the .223. Tired of neck down cases. I wish the Ruger 77/44 had 10 or 15 round magazines but they don't. Or I'd be all about just shooting that rifle primarily even though it is a bolt gun. It is small, easy to carry, accurate, and powerful.

 

[MistWolf]

The Kel-Tec SU-16C is a fragile rifle. My shooting partner has one. We were shooting his SU-16C side by side, bullet for bullet with my newly assembled AR and the Kel-Tec broke right behind the receiver somewhere between 2000 & 3000 rounds. Kel-Tec happily replaced it, but the SU-16C doesn't go out with us anymore. (We also broke two Kel-Tec pistols simply by shooting them.)

I would NOT sell a good 25-06 to buy either carbine you're considering. You'll regret it if you do

 

[Davek1977]

Other than the ability to make it compact, there is nothing that appeals to me about the Kel-tec in comparison to a good AR. If weight was my hangup, I'd look to either a different variation of AR, or changing my present configuration to one that is more lightweight. The widespread availability of parts alone makes the AR a more solid, "safe" choice, IMO.

 

[chicharrones]

I agree with the others. The only way I'd get a KelTec long gun would be to add it to the collection. I would not trade off solid proven guns for a KelTec long gun.

I've gone through the same thinking on occasion, though. Wanting to trade an existing gun to get another. Sometimes it works out well, but most of the time I rethink what I like about a gun and how I use it. The existing gun usually stays after a lot of thought.

 

[Lord Teapot]

delete

 

[Lord Teapot]

Yes I do.

1. You sell two good rifles, and buy two sub-standard rifles?
You will be sorry sooner, if not later.

I like Kel-Tec, and own a couple.
But they are what they are, which is sub-standard to the quality you are accustomed to.


2. The folding bi-pod on the SU-16 warps the barrel upward and changes the zero when it is used to support the rifle. So people soon learn they are not usable for accurate shooting.

3. You don't need a bipod anyway once you learn to shoot a rifle.

4. AR-15's don't have to weigh 9 pounds.
My old Colt carbine weighs less then 6 with a full 20 round mag.

5. Why don't you just spend half the money and buy a new light weight pencil barrel upper for the AR you already have?

6. Don't do it, as you will be sorry, sooner, if not later!!

rc

i had some thoughts as well but this sums up most of them^


i'll just add that the one keltec i've owned was a jamming pos with all ammo unless cleaned every 30 rounds.

 

[chicharrones]

It is an A2 stock/Lower/M4 barrel with rifle length hand guards. I am guessing 7 to 9 lbs load. Oh with an Aimpoint on it as well. With a full 30 round mag of 77 grain SMK along with powder it seems like an 8+ lbs rifle.
30 rounds is 3000+ grains nearly 1/2 a lbs. The Aimpoint isn't light, and the 16" M4 barrel along with the rifle length hand guards is pretty heavy. Then an A2 stock instead of a 6 pos telescopic stock. Not some plastic stock, but a nice firm stock.

My AR is accurate with all the ammo I shoot in it.

Another thought is to pull the red dot and put a low power scope on it. Change the use of your AR for a while. I have a red dot on my midlength gas AR with medium weight barrel and fixed A1 stock. While the gun shoots very well with the red dot, the gun might be more suited for a low power scope. My problem is the red dot was expensive (EOTech) and I really don't have another gun to move it to. So, I'm living with my setup for now and am actually enjoying it. Perhaps adding a magnifier would be worthwhile since it is already a bit on the porky side.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Keltec - innovative design, unevenly implemented and built cheap (even if not always sold cheap)?

As far as lightening the AR, my experience has been that a well-balanced rifle is easier to shoot/carry than a nose-heavy lighter rifle (though nose-heavy starts to help when using CMP shooting positions). On your AR, the only real places to trim weight without a new handguard or barrel profile are the optic (Go to an Aimpoint T1 or H1 3oz) and the stock.

I think there also may be something in training with a heavier rifle. Supposedly, the ancient Roman legionairres trained with a wooden gladius that was twice as heavy as their actual sword. I know after doing a class with my 12lb AR15, the lightweight blaster with just a T1 is very easy to handle.

 

[JWH321]

The only advice I can give is "don't".

 

[eldon519]

An AR15 is really one of the best take-down rifles made. Press two pins and you can halve its length for storage purposes.

 

[bikemutt]

My K-T experiences are a mixed bag. The only two I kept are a PMR30 and a SUB2000 9mm Glock mag rifle. The rest were not so good, to terrible.

I would not get rid of an AR15 for the K-T.

 

[kBob]

These guys can tell you I am not the worlds greatest AR15 fan.....but I can not think of a reason I would trade one for the KT SU-16.

I would not mind having the Kel Tec....a buddy has good things to say about his as a light use ranch rifle. A few shots here and there to keep his hand in but mainly it lives behind the bedroom door tricked out with a high powered light for things that spook the live stock at 2 AM.

Just no way would even I trade my AR for one or one WITH a folding 9mm Carbine....

-kBob

 

[strambo]

The issue is you have an AR that is longer and heavier than it needs to be, that isn't a knock on the AR as a platform. A Magpul MOE stock, carbine receiver extension, and a little shorter/lighter rail won't cost that much and will make a big difference.

 

[Inebriated]

It is an A2 stock/Lower/M4 barrel with rifle length hand guards. I am guessing 7 to 9 lbs load. Oh with an Aimpoint on it as well. With a full 30 round mag of 77 grain SMK along with powder it seems like an 8+ lbs rifle.
30 rounds is 3000+ grains nearly 1/2 a lbs. The Aimpoint isn't light, and the 16" M4 barrel along with the rifle length hand guards is pretty heavy. Then an A2 stock instead of a 6 pos telescopic stock. Not some plastic stock, but a nice firm stock.

I'll put it on the scale when I get home. With a loaded 30 round magazine. Unless I change the barrel, gas port, and using 55 grain bullets with a telescopic buttstock, and swap the MOE rifle length hand guards for some ultra lite aluminum quad rail or Troy hand guard. I don't see how I can get it lighter without buying an enitrely new AR.

My AR is accurate with all the ammo I shoot in it. I am getting tired of the platform right now. Right now I can see a pistol caliber carbine being more suitable, and fun to shoot. Something in a straight walled cartridge. I love shooting the 30-30 loaded down with 125 grain FNHPs @ 2150 fps, but don't enjoy neck down cases. Same as loading the .223. Tired of neck down cases. I wish the Ruger 77/44 had 10 or 15 round magazines but they don't. Or I'd be all about just shooting that rifle primarily even though it is a bolt gun. It is small, easy to carry, accurate, and powerful.

Well, a new gun is already on the table, is it not? It makes sense to me to sell you Dissipator for a lighter AR.

My BCM RECCE 16 is 7 pounds, 13 ounces with a full mag (62gr loads), BCM QD point, Inforce WML on an HSP offset mount, Aimpoint H1 in a LaRue LT660 mount, and with DD sights. And that's with a 16" government profile barrel and a 13" handguard. I didn't build an expressly lightweight barrel, but by simply using their ELW barrel instead of the government profile, I'd have saved 6 ounces. And then I could have still cut ounces by using a 10" handguard, lighter Aimpoint mount, placing the light ahead of the front sight, eliminating the need for the offset mount, and even using a titanium gas block and muzzle device. Oh, and my sling is a Magpul MS1 with 2 QD mounts. It's over 6oz. I could knock out half that by using a different sling without QD points. But like I said, I didn't set out for a lightweight.

Now I only say all that to show that there are several ways to achieve a lighter rifle, but an A2 stock, A2 FSB, and 12" heat-shielded polymer handguards aren't how to do it. And I'd be surprised if you saw any practical accuracy change with a free-floated lightweight barrel compared to a non-floated standard profile.

So if you think you're okay selling it for a KelTec, I'd really recommend just selling it for a lighter AR.

ETA - the rifle you see here, with everything on it, including a laughably heavy sling, is 8 pounds, 5 ounces.

 

[Eb1]

Mine comes in at 8# 5 oz. with the AimPoint that was given to me from a buddy who brought it home from Afghanistan. I do have a detach scope mount that I use for shooting varmints and pigs.
Truth be told I am an A2 sight person myself. I prefer just to use the A2 sights over anything. I guess that comes from years of shooting HP comps.
I did save up quite a long time to get this AR I have now after selling my post-ban Colt HBAR 1:9 which was the most accurate rifle I have ever owned, and also I ended up selling a White Oak upper that I shot HP with. I have sellers remorse from both of those sales. I think the weight of the AR is getting to me because I haven't had it out shooting it as much as I use to. I have bee shooting my handguns mostly.
I am sure if I just get the muscles use to holding the AR it will be fine, and yes the AR takes down very easily.

That is what you guys/gals are here for, at least to me. To help talk some sense back into me when I get crazy ideas. I am thinking of selling the .25-06 for a .308 Win or .270. I haven't loaded many .25-06 bullets that can even compare to the accuracy of the Black Box Winchester 115 grain Combined Technology silver tips. Those bullets out of my .25-06 will easily and repeatably shoot quarter size groups of 5 at 200 yards, but the cost is outrageous. Should I be shooting the .25-06 so much when not hunting? I don't know. Sometimes I like to shoot it.
I'll give it another go this fall on trying to meet the performance of the Winchester rounds. I think I am giving up on RL-19, and will buy me some Winchester 780 if I can find some.

As for Kel-Tec, I absolutely love my P32 chrome with a factory fitted green frame that is marked .380 ACP, but the gun is a .32 ACP. I'll never sell it so I am not worried about someone putting the wrong ammo in it, and I don't think it will fit. The serial number is on the gun not the frame so I am not to worried about that.
I'll keep the AR, and possibly build a pencil barrel, then alum. hand guard setup with a telescopic sight for home or 4 wheeling. I just hope it shoots as good as this one I have now, but the one I have now doesn't hold a candle to the old Colt HBAR post ban or the White Oak.

I guess one option would be to sell the upper, and get a WOA 20" upper for target shooting, and then build me a light weight AR I was speaking of earlier.

I can't thank you guys/gals enough for the common sense. Sometimes I just get a wild hair to do something spontaneous. I am an Aries, and we tend to do those types of things.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

9lb AR? How much junk do you have hanging off of it? A clean lightweight palmetto state upper may resolve all your issues for $300ish.

 

[GEM]

Like Mistwolf, I saw a Keltec break in half during a carbine class.

 

[Jackal]

My 5.8lb AR using a .750 14.5" P&W govt profile barrel. Cost me about $800 to build using quality parts. Light, handy and more accurate than I am.

 

[Eb1]

That is what mine cost me. Right at $850 minus the AimPoint which was a gift from a good friend. Here it is, and weighs 9.5 lbs with a 20 round magazine filled with 77 grain SMKs. I think it is a nice looking rifle. It shoots good with 55-77 grain bullets. It is easy to load for, and isn't very picky, but really likes 62 grain, 69 grain and 77 grain bullets the best. It will shoot M193 very well also, but I keep it loaded with 69 and 77 grain SMK mostly for 500 yard shooting. With 62 grain M855 it will shoot to 540 yards very, very accurately. With the way it is setup that is 5 plus 2 clicks.
The AimPoint is setup for M193 zero'd at 50 yards, and is good to 300 yards +3 to -3 inches. Which is how I keep it for home use, but I don't have this as my home defense rifle. I have shotguns I use for that.
I see that I am going to have to build a pencil barrel, telescopic (don't like them) stock, and possibly a Troy style hand guard with flip up MOE sights. I'd like to have another that weighed around 5.5 lbs. for a manageable weight if for some reason I had to move up or down wooded areas quickly, but the more I think about it. This AR-15 is super reliable and accurate. I will not be replacing it with a Kel-Tec SU model. After getting this rifle back out, and looking it over and shouldering it. I am reminded how much I like this platform and this rifle specifically. It just has some serious weight to it. I don't know if it is the FN barrel or what.

 

[moxie]

There are good reasons most military and police have shed their MP-5s, Uzis, and other PCCs in favor of the AR platform. Reliability, durability, modularity, accuracy, to name a few. And you can make them as light and streamlined or as heavy and tricked out as you want. Mostly without the need for a smith. Yes, bottleneck cases are a pest, but the .223 is for many applications a much more effective round than anything in pistol caliber, and very often cheaper too.

 

[sappyg]

Whew...we almost lost Eb1... That was a close call.

Can't say I'm a big fan of 9. (Ok.. 8 lbs) ARs either but that's an easy fix.