chiltech500
Member
Is it generally safe to say the faster burning powders within a given carteridge produce less recoil and slower more recoil?
Powder Burn Rate/ Perceived Recoil
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Bailey Boat
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I would think the opposite would be true since a faster powder would burn more "all at once" whereas a slower powder would "burn over time". I've been wrong before so don't wager your 401K on this.......
chiltech500
Member
As a newer reloader I've only tried 2 powders for 45 acp so far, Bullseye and N310 by VV. N310 is the 2nd fastest burning powder I believe and it is a powder puff at max load for LSWC compared to Bullseye at mid-load.
That's why I was wondering if it was powder specific or a general truism
That's why I was wondering if it was powder specific or a general truism
It can affect the recoil impulse, and the weight of the powder charge has to be included in the math to attain recoil values, since it has weight to be ejected from the bore just like the weight of the bullet.
Recoil depends on several things, not just the burn rate of the powder used. In general, the faster powder can have less recoil, but it can be sharper at some levels.
So, it depends.
Recoil depends on several things, not just the burn rate of the powder used. In general, the faster powder can have less recoil, but it can be sharper at some levels.
So, it depends.
Schwing
Member
Someone in another thread summed it up pretty good for me. They made the analogy of throwing a tennis ball into the air and punching it with your first as being like fast burning powder. They then pointed out that if you were to throw a bowling ball into the air and punch it with the same fist.....
With slow powder, the pressure is built up more gradually, basically, it takes longer for the bullet to get up to full velocity which is why, often, longer barrels benefit the most from slower powder. Granted, the difference in timing can be measured in microseconds. It is also why slower powders are generally used more for heavier bullets.
My perception has always been that fast powder seems to create more of a short, snappy recoil whereas slower powder tends to build a heavier but more gradual recoil. I think punching a tennis ball vs heaving a bowling ball is a pretty good analogy.
With slow powder, the pressure is built up more gradually, basically, it takes longer for the bullet to get up to full velocity which is why, often, longer barrels benefit the most from slower powder. Granted, the difference in timing can be measured in microseconds. It is also why slower powders are generally used more for heavier bullets.
My perception has always been that fast powder seems to create more of a short, snappy recoil whereas slower powder tends to build a heavier but more gradual recoil. I think punching a tennis ball vs heaving a bowling ball is a pretty good analogy.
Andrew Leigh
Member
Recently I loaded 2 powders for my .375.
The felt recoil for the slower one was significantly more and different with more muzle lift, so much so that I needed to man up on my forened grip in order to avoid vertical stringing. They were different pressures but the same MV (50fps faster on the faster powder which came in at 2 514fps with a 300gr. Accubond..
The slower powder had a calulated chamber pressure of 54 250psi and the pressure at the muzzle was 8 684psi.
The quicker powder had a calculated chamber pressure of 64 535psi and the pressure at the muzzle was 7 654psi.
It may make no sense but my shooting buddy confirmed that the muzzle was lifting and suggested that I alter my grip, when he shot my loads he confirmed my opinion on the recoil.
The felt recoil for the slower one was significantly more and different with more muzle lift, so much so that I needed to man up on my forened grip in order to avoid vertical stringing. They were different pressures but the same MV (50fps faster on the faster powder which came in at 2 514fps with a 300gr. Accubond..
The slower powder had a calulated chamber pressure of 54 250psi and the pressure at the muzzle was 8 684psi.
The quicker powder had a calculated chamber pressure of 64 535psi and the pressure at the muzzle was 7 654psi.
It may make no sense but my shooting buddy confirmed that the muzzle was lifting and suggested that I alter my grip, when he shot my loads he confirmed my opinion on the recoil.
LiveLife
Member
In general for pistol powders, I consider Alliant Uinque/Hodgdon Universal to be the reference mark that separates faster burn rate powders from more slower burn rate powders.
At high to near max load data, slower burn rate powders like HS-6/WSF/AutoComp produce less snappy felt recoil that rather "push" than "snap". With faster burn rate powders like Bullseye/Titegroup/W231/HP-38, felt recoil is more snappy.
However, since faster burn rate powders are able to produce lighter target loads at lower powder charges due to more efficient powder burn, these faster burn rate powders can produce light/mild felt recoil loads at low to mid range load data.
An example is 45ACP 200 gr lead SWC with 4.0 gr of Red Dot/Promo. Although these are very fast burn rate powders, felt recoil from this load is very light and still accurate enough for good range/plinking loads.
Another example is 40S&W 180 gr plated/lead TCFP with 3.8-4.0 gr of W231/HP-38. Even for 40S&W known for very snappy recoil, these loads produce mild felt recoil softer than 9mm factory loads yet accurate enough for range/plinking loads.
As to Bullseye vs N310, IME, even similar burn rate powders with same weight bullet can produce different felt recoil depending on their burn characteristics.
At high to near max load data, slower burn rate powders like HS-6/WSF/AutoComp produce less snappy felt recoil that rather "push" than "snap". With faster burn rate powders like Bullseye/Titegroup/W231/HP-38, felt recoil is more snappy.
However, since faster burn rate powders are able to produce lighter target loads at lower powder charges due to more efficient powder burn, these faster burn rate powders can produce light/mild felt recoil loads at low to mid range load data.
An example is 45ACP 200 gr lead SWC with 4.0 gr of Red Dot/Promo. Although these are very fast burn rate powders, felt recoil from this load is very light and still accurate enough for good range/plinking loads.
Another example is 40S&W 180 gr plated/lead TCFP with 3.8-4.0 gr of W231/HP-38. Even for 40S&W known for very snappy recoil, these loads produce mild felt recoil softer than 9mm factory loads yet accurate enough for range/plinking loads.
As to Bullseye vs N310, IME, even similar burn rate powders with same weight bullet can produce different felt recoil depending on their burn characteristics.
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gahunter12
Member
In general faster powders with heavier bullets give less perceived recoil. The heavier bullet make the recoil a pushy recoil with less muzzle flip, where the lighter bullets are snappy. Also when you start playing with fast powders/heavy bullets you can get in to having function issues, and slide speed issues. This is the reason we reduce the recoil springs to speed up the slide, and balance the muzzle flip in our match guns. My G35 has the recoil of a light .380. My muzzle rise is near "0".
chiltech500
Member
Thanks guys. The top suggested load for VV N310 is 4.0 gr and I use a 200 gr LSWC. N310 is maybe a bit faster burn than Red Dot. Bullseye using the same bullet at 5.8 produces a snappier/greater muzzle flip recoil. I suspect If I bought 231 or WSF and used mid chart load I would feel even more flip with my 200 gr LSWC.
I will be going to my local reloading shop tonight and need a powder for 9mm as I have only 1 lb of Titegroup left. He would only sell me 1 lb of Bullseye and Titegroup last visit cause he didn't have much. I saw jugs of WSF, 231 and WST. I only saw published data for lead 124/125 gr for 9mm in WSF and 231.
I will be going to my local reloading shop tonight and need a powder for 9mm as I have only 1 lb of Titegroup left. He would only sell me 1 lb of Bullseye and Titegroup last visit cause he didn't have much. I saw jugs of WSF, 231 and WST. I only saw published data for lead 124/125 gr for 9mm in WSF and 231.
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LiveLife
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I haven't used N310 but used N320 - a very nice powder for 9mm if you can find it for both target and full power loads.
WST or W231/HP-38 at mid range will give you less snappy recoil than Bullseye and good for target loads.
I use WSF at high to near max because it is slower burn rate powder good for full power loads.
For lead 9mm & 45ACP loads, I would suggest W231 or HP-38 (same powder as W231 but often cheaper).
WST or W231/HP-38 at mid range will give you less snappy recoil than Bullseye and good for target loads.
I use WSF at high to near max because it is slower burn rate powder good for full power loads.
For lead 9mm & 45ACP loads, I would suggest W231 or HP-38 (same powder as W231 but often cheaper).
Red Cent
Member
Bailey Boat is on track. If you wanted move a car you would not want to take a run at it.
Most competitive shooters use slow powders with heavy bullets and fast powder with light bullets.
There is a group that doesn't like the "push" of the slow powder and prefer the "snappy" loads that cuts a nano second in recovery time.
It is possible, with the slow powders, to make the pressure curve to peak slower.
Most competitive shooters use slow powders with heavy bullets and fast powder with light bullets.
There is a group that doesn't like the "push" of the slow powder and prefer the "snappy" loads that cuts a nano second in recovery time.
It is possible, with the slow powders, to make the pressure curve to peak slower.
chiltech500
Member
BDS you mention WST for 9mm, I haven't found any published data on that...I will be using 125gr LSWC bullets and I see data for 125gr LCN with 231 powder but not WST.
Do you have a recipe for WST?
Do you have a recipe for WST?
Blue68f100
Member
I have always found that slower burn powders have less snappy feel. Which produce a softer feeling perceived recoil. To me less snap gives you better gun control for followup shots. But if your shooting lighter loads you need to go to faster burn powders.
For 45acp I use WST for my practice loads. Burns a lot cleaner than BE. But if I want maximum velocity I use WSF.
If your trying to get a reduced recoil load, use a heaver bullet with slow burn powder.
For 45acp I use WST for my practice loads. Burns a lot cleaner than BE. But if I want maximum velocity I use WSF.
If your trying to get a reduced recoil load, use a heaver bullet with slow burn powder.
gahunter12
Member
It depends on the type of competition. If you are shooting major in USPSA, this would be correct. If you shoot minor, or IDPA you want a bunny fart load with fast powders, and heavy bullets with a PF of 130 to give you a little room for error.
This is why you see so many using Titegroup with heavy bullets in IDPA.
I know you are talking about pistols but my experience was in 30-06 sitting and prone rapid fire, that a load of 175 SMK and 55.0 grains of IMR 4350 felt as though it kicked more than a load of 175 SMK and 47.0 IMR 4895. The velocities are basically the same, the only differences are powder charge weights and burn rate.
Powder burn rate for pistols does have an effect on function. All automatic mechanisms open up while there still is residual barrel pressure. This pressure aids in ejection of the cartridge. This pressure cannot be so high as to rupture the case sidewall as it moves back. If the pressure is high at unlock the mechanism is accelerated more. Whether this is good or not depends on the characteristics of the mechanism. I think something with a heavy breech block, like a Thompson machine gun, might be better served with a slower burning powder which would help keep that breech block moving.
I think for most short recoil semi auto pistols faster is better than slower. A quick sharp kick gets everything moving, and moving consistently. In my 1911's a slow powder, such as Blue Dot, just beat up the mechanism and caused hard recoil.
A bud of mine had an Austrian service pistol, a Steyr GB, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_GB which because of its design, would not function without a lot of gas. Rounds that cycled in his Beretta would short stroke in the GB
Powder burn rate for pistols does have an effect on function. All automatic mechanisms open up while there still is residual barrel pressure. This pressure aids in ejection of the cartridge. This pressure cannot be so high as to rupture the case sidewall as it moves back. If the pressure is high at unlock the mechanism is accelerated more. Whether this is good or not depends on the characteristics of the mechanism. I think something with a heavy breech block, like a Thompson machine gun, might be better served with a slower burning powder which would help keep that breech block moving.
I think for most short recoil semi auto pistols faster is better than slower. A quick sharp kick gets everything moving, and moving consistently. In my 1911's a slow powder, such as Blue Dot, just beat up the mechanism and caused hard recoil.
A bud of mine had an Austrian service pistol, a Steyr GB, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steyr_GB which because of its design, would not function without a lot of gas. Rounds that cycled in his Beretta would short stroke in the GB
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The whole "perceived" thing is just that perceived. There is actual recoil which is dependent on not only the powder burn speed, load, the bullet weight and the weight of the gun
What one person perceives as a hard recoil another may not.
There are recoil calculators you can plug in the data and get an idea of what the actual recoil is.
This give you actual recoil not "felt" which to me is perceived.
What one person perceives as a hard recoil another may not.
There are recoil calculators you can plug in the data and get an idea of what the actual recoil is.
This give you actual recoil not "felt" which to me is perceived.
Potatohead
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That whole perceived, felt and actual stuff confuses me. It's like wind chill. It "feels like" such and such degrees..but its "actually" such and such. If it feels like 64 F than it seems like it should be 64 F. I dont get it:banghead:
I know, I know, there's a bunch of factors, dewpoint shmupoint, yada yada.
Confuses the heck outa me
I know, I know, there's a bunch of factors, dewpoint shmupoint, yada yada.
Confuses the heck outa me
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gahunter12
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You hit the nail on the head! You need to be a weather man to understand it.
Potatohead
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LOL..
Rule3 I wasnt trying to dog your post or discredit what you were saying btw.
Rule3 I wasnt trying to dog your post or discredit what you were saying btw.
chiltech500
Member
As the OP, I didn't make it clear that I was referring to the same weight bullet used in the same gun, the only variable is the powder. In this case a 200 gr LSWC and an all steel 1911.
As to perceived vs actual recoil I'm probably referring more to muzzle flip, which I'm sure is a function of recoil. I shoot one handed practicing for NRA Bullseye and with my fast powder N310 my gun doesn't move up that substantially after each shot. Using the slower Bullseye powder (same bullet ,same gun) the rise in the muzzle is very noticeable as is the "feeling" of pushing the gun back towards me. Not very scientific but to me quite clear.
After reading all these posts I feel no closer to having my question answere than when I started LOL
Potatohead
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LOL.
There's probably a lot to it though. Ive never done anything that has so many darned variables as reloading/loading. It sho is fun though!
There's probably a lot to it though. Ive never done anything that has so many darned variables as reloading/loading. It sho is fun though!
LiveLife
Member
I think WST is better suited for 45ACP and if you were to buy one powder for lead 9mm/45ACP, I would suggest W231/HP-38.chiltech500 said:
If you are still interested, 1999 Winchester load data has lead WST loads - http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159609&stc=1&d=1329800605
Here's a thread you can reference for WST and 9mm with chrono data - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=493588
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chiltech500
Member
Thanks for the info.
I'm leaning to have one powder for 45 and another for 9mm. I have the Hodgon chart which lists the 3 brands they own (I guess). I'm going to see if I can get a jug of 231 tonight.
I bought my N310 online and would rather buy locally and not pay a haz mat fee and shipping. I know I would like N320 or N330.
I'm leaning to have one powder for 45 and another for 9mm. I have the Hodgon chart which lists the 3 brands they own (I guess). I'm going to see if I can get a jug of 231 tonight.
I bought my N310 online and would rather buy locally and not pay a haz mat fee and shipping. I know I would like N320 or N330.
You will not understand it, no one does
For 1911 a good middle road powder is HP38/W231. It;s good for pretty much any caliber.Some like Unique but Bullseye has been the main one for years.
Bottom line just use a lower (within range) powder charge, There are certain powders that just work well in certain calibers.
The 45 ACP load for the Military and the 1911 has been 5 grs (rounded up)of Bullseye for ever. Now there are lots of different powders you can use for the same bullet and gun all things equal (achieving the same velocity) say with Unique or HP 38 will you know what powder it is?? Probably not.
I am not recoil sensitive with handguns. I can shoot a lot of full house 44 Mags most of a range trip. Give me a alloy J frame in 357 mag and 5 shots I am done
chiltech500
Member
Thanks RULE3 that was a great general broad view.
My trip to the reloading shop did not get me 231 or HP38, he had none left of either. I bought a 4lb jug of Titegroup for my 9mm use and I have 4lbs of N310 for 45 cal, that should last me a bit
(I hope Titegroup is a bit cleaner than Bullseye)
I'm shooting exclusively one handed practicing to join an NRA Bullseye league and am more sensitive to recoil for that reason. I'm sure any competitive shooter would like the least recoil available, even two handed shooters.
My trip to the reloading shop did not get me 231 or HP38, he had none left of either. I bought a 4lb jug of Titegroup for my 9mm use and I have 4lbs of N310 for 45 cal, that should last me a bit
(I hope Titegroup is a bit cleaner than Bullseye)
I'm shooting exclusively one handed practicing to join an NRA Bullseye league and am more sensitive to recoil for that reason. I'm sure any competitive shooter would like the least recoil available, even two handed shooters.
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