powder equivalency question

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shekarchi

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Hello everyone- I am just learning my way around the reloading arena
as far as powders go...
if two powders are listed next to each other on the powder burn rate chart-are they close enough to be interchangeale? e.g. would 50 grains of winchester 760 [#109 on burn chart] give somewhat similar results as 50 grains of Hodgdon H414 [# 110 on the burn chart]...?
So far I have purchased three kinds of powder [W760, W780 supreme, and IMR4064]
thanks!
 
NO! NO! Don't.

That burn rate chart aught to be something you can't even see until you've been loading for 10 years or something. It's just a really rough guide to one facet -- burn rate. Nothing else is implied or stated by that chart, including anything about equivalency of powders. It's a curiosity, a bit of trivia. Don't base any loading on that chart at all.

Look at your loading manuals. Compare them. See what powders the bullet makers and powder makers recommend for your cartridge and bullet weight. Pick from those.

NO substitutions! If you cant' find load data from a verified source -- DON'T load it.
 
if two powders are listed next to each other on the powder burn rate chart-are they close enough to be interchangeale?
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Absolutely not. Powder burn rates can change from caliber to caliber. Two powders next to each other on one burn rate chart may not be together on another. The difference between two powders next to each other on a burn rate chart may be slight, or fairly big. Use data for the powder being used, and only that powder.
 
many of winchester and Hodgdon powders are the same. the only one i can think of off hand is W231 and hp38
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That is technically true, though it isn't "many," it is "a couple." H110 and W296 is another equivalent pair.

However, those are oddballs in that they are literally, the same thing (or functionally so). That's not the same as being two different powders that happen to be near each other on one of the burn rate charts.
 
"powders are listed next to each other on the powder burn rate chart"

That's a great idea and would work IF those burn rates were liner.

But as the burn rates are just a listing in relative positions, I find those lists only useful if I'm looking for a slower/faster powder, then I look at actual published loading data for the potential new powder to use.

Good try, good thinking, keep it up and always question.

Also, it looks to me like 'same' powders are list alphabetically, ie. HP-38 before Win 231 or H 110 before Win 296.
 
A burn rate chart is really only useful to use when shopping for powder. Such as, "well they don't have the powder I wanted, but this and this are pretty close to it on the chart, so I bet if I consult this load manual here.....yes, here is load data, I can use this powder."
 
A burn rate chart is really only useful to use when shopping for powder. Such as, "well they don't have the powder I wanted, but this and this are pretty close to it on the chart, so I bet if I consult this load manual here.....yes, here is load data, I can use this powder."
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And even then it can lead you astray when you discover that ... whoops, this powder that I bought that looks like it SHOULD word in my cartridge isn't listed by anyone because it doesn't work well for some voodoo reason!
 
Sam1911 said:
And even then it can lead you astray when you discover that ... whoops, this powder that I bought that looks like it SHOULD word in my cartridge isn't listed by anyone because it doesn't work well for some voodoo reason!
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That's very true. Aliiant has several shotgun powders, that based on burn rate charts "should" work for non-magnum pistol calibers. Ex: Hodgdon's burn rate chart has Alliant 20/28 sandwiched directly between W231 and Unique but I've never seen pistol data for 20/28. Alliant Pro Reach is between AA#7 and Longshot but Alliant only lists shotgun date for Pro Reach. Alliant 410 and Alliant Steel both look like they'd be candidates for magnum pistol calibers but again, only shotgun data is listed for them.

Alliant seems to be an oddball when it comes to that though. Many Winchester, IMR, and Hodgdon powders that are close to each other are good choices for the same caliber. but always check a manual before buying/loading a powder. I personally check at least 2 reliable sources before deciding to try a new powder. I may get opinions from the folks here as well but if it's not in a manual I'm not trying it.
 
Yup, it's a good guide, but sometimes there's an obscure reason why you can't just say, "OK, I see you're out of Winchester 231, but Bangbuster123 is nearby on the chart, I'll take that instead."

During shortages those kinds of powders are often on the shelf while the more popular and more useful powders aren't. And that's a big reason why. There's a lot of that with the shotgun-only powders. The large chunk of the faster burning powder has uses in both shotguns and pistols. However there are a few that are safe only in a shotgun load.

All the powder manufacturers produce a promotional pamphlet they send to the stores who sell their product line to give to customers. At a minimum consult those before buying something new.
 
Don't do it. Just because they are close doesn't mean they are the same. With the abundance of free data available online I don't know why you'd bother extrapolating data like that. However, with the two powders you mentioned it would be perfectly safe. Win 760 and H414 are another pair of Winchester and Hodgdon powders that are identical except for the label.
 
7mmb said:
Don't do it. Just because they are close doesn't mean they are the same. With the abundance of free data available online I don't know why you'd bother extrapolating data like that. However, with the two powders you mentioned it would be perfectly safe. Win 760 and H414 are another pair of Winchester and Hodgdon powders that are identical except for the label.
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thank you- I will not do anything unless I am sure it is safe- As I said I am new- that's why all the "elementary-sounding" questions. Here's another:
Hornady tech support said I can load it as a 130 grain bullet....
So if it were to be loaded like a 130 grain SST - what kind of velocity difference should I expect there to be?

e.g. 54.8 grains of WIN supreme 780 drives 130 grain SST’s at 2600 f/s. What would I expect velocity wise for this charge behind the 120 grain SST? consider this though- the manual says 54.6 grains of same powder would drive a 140 grain SST also at 2600f/s. It puzzles me the how lighter charge with heavier bullet gives the same velocity...
And how much would I need to cut back in order to get velocities in the 2400-2500 f/s range?
Do appreciate the advice!
 
What does the manual say about loading for a different bullet weight?

You can generally load a slightly lighter bullet at the same charge you'd load a heavier one. Pressures will be lower. Velocity won't be as high as you'd expect from that lighter bullet with a full charge.

Pressures and velocity do funny things sometimes, vis-a-vis bullet weight changes. A heavier bullet using the same charge means higher pressure. Whether that's just peak pressure or total pressure over the whole trip down the barrel.

To some degree, greater pressure (total, overall) means higher velocity, generally.

The only way to tell how much to drop back to hit a specific velocity (why would you do that?) would be with a few test loads and a chronograph.

...

Of course, the velocities you're reading about may or may not be very similar to what your rifle is producing. Without a chronograph to check what you're really getting out of your gun with a given load, the velocity numbers are just a guess. You could be 50-100 fps faster or slower than the test barrel they used to make up the load data!
 
No two powders are completely interchangeable. And just cuz they're next to each other doesn't mean they are even that close. There are a few big jumps in the burn rate chart.

Also, some powders are so bulky, even though they're a similar burn rate as another powder, you can't get enough of it in the case to begin with! An example is SR 4759. It's in the same burn rate zipcode as some popular magnum handgun powders. But you can't fit enough in a handgun case for it to be of much use as a pistol powder.

But in general, powders that are close on the burn rate chart usually have a lot of overlap in their usefulness. Just check the loading manuals to be sure that what your intuition tells you is not going to get you in trouble.

A lot of the newer powders don't come with a lot of load info. So even though they could be useful for other calibers, no one has bothered to do any workups. They were found to be MORE useful than existing powders for certain calibers, and so that's all the data you'll find. The manufacturers didn't bother working up loads for other stuff, NOT because the powder won't work in other calibers. It's just because there is no need to reinvent the wheel (and take on more liability in case their workups and testing were flawed).

There are some folks who have used shotgun specific powders (I'm thinking E3 and Steel, for example, which were both fairly avail during this shortage) in, say, 45ACP. There's nothing remarkable about that. Plenty of older powders are marketed for both shotgun and pistol. It's just that the newer stuff tends to come out with limited data, initially, so these pioneers had to do their own testing.
 
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KansasSasquatch said:
That's very true. Aliiant has several shotgun powders, that based on burn rate charts "should" work for non-magnum pistol calibers. Ex: Hodgdon's burn rate chart has Alliant 20/28 sandwiched directly between W231 and Unique but I've never seen pistol data for 20/28. Alliant Pro Reach is between AA#7 and Longshot but Alliant only lists shotgun date for Pro Reach. Alliant 410 and Alliant Steel both look like they'd be candidates for magnum pistol calibers but again, only shotgun data is listed for them.
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During the last powder crunch I started looking for alternatives to "standard" handgun powders and began with Alliant's line of shotgun powders. According to the burn rate charts 20/28 should've been very similar to Unique. I bought a pound and tested several loads side-by-side with Unique in one of my .44 Specials and one load in my 45 ACP. I've since tested it quite a lot in a .38 Special. It is very, very similar, although ever so slightly faster burning, to Unique. I've since bought a 4 lb. jug and have pretty much replaced Unique with it.

Next up was e3 which according to the charts should've burned a little faster than either Red Dot or Bullseye. My limited testing, as can be seen at the above link, showed this to be pretty much the case.

I then bought a can of Pro Reach thinking it might be a good alternative to Blue Dot as it was situated close to Blue Dot in the burn rate charts. WRONG!!! I tested it in a heavy .357 revolver. I started out with light loads comparing it side-by-side to Blue Dot. It's not even similar to Blue Dot, having a burn rate much closer to that of the faster burning Herco according to my chronograph comparisons.

The moral of the story is...be very careful and don't rely solely on burn rate charts.

35W
 
No two powders are completely interchangeable.
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Actually, as pointed out a couple of times in this thread, there ARE a few powders which are exactly the same thing, just labeled differently and sold by different manufacturers.

(Like H110 and W296.)

Just something worth knowing.
 
Even if two powders had identical (or very close) burn rates their densities are not identical. Powder densities vary widely. So, for a give charge weight, they would each fill the case to a different level. The handloading term for this is call "Load Density", and LD has a dramatic effect on pressure and velocity.
 
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Currently there are a handful of powders which are exactly the same but they are very few and only a small portion of the Hundreds of powders on the market today.

There are the ones I know of and are 100% the same powders verified by the manufacturers/distributors:
W231 = HP-38
W296 = H110
W540 = HS-6
W571 = HS-7 (both discontinued)
W760 = H414
WAP = Silhouette
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Currently there are a handful of powders which are exactly the same but they are very few and only a small portion of the Hundreds of powders on the market today.

There are the ones I know of and are 100% the same powders verified by the manufacturers/distributors:
W231 = HP-38
W296 = H110
W540 = HS-6
W571 = HS-7 (both discontinued)
W760 = H414
WAP = Silhouette
Click to expand...
thank you
 
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