Powder mystery to be solved

[crimsoncomet]

Hey guys. Been to long since I've posted, but I need some help identifying some powder.

A friend of mine gave me some 45 Colt loads from Barnes Bullets. After shooting a 5 shot one whole group, I've gotten very curious as to what powder they used. On top of that, the loads are very very clean. These loads are standard pressure 45 Colt with a 200 grain bullet. I pulled one round apart, and it appears to be 800x. 9.0 grains was the charge. Which is in line with 800x. The only problem, is that it does not have the brown indicator flakes that 800x normally has. The flake size appears almost identical if not identical. Are there any other powders out there that resemble 800x? Thanks in advance for any help!





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[ArchAngelCD]

It's impossible to ID a powder by looking at it. If this was loaded ammo from Barnes the powder they used will not be available to reloaders. They custom blend their powders to achieve the pressure and velocity they are looking for.

 

[Scooter22]

I agree. I would never "guess" what a powder is visually and try to sub something. I know some swear they can and use loads from what they think it is. But do you want to "guess" on something that can blow up and kill you? No thanks.

 

[crimsoncomet]

Thank you for the replies, but I am very safe in my reloading practices and always have been. I also understand that companies use non canister powder. This powder is one powder, not multiples blended, although a company could most likely have a type of powder specifically developed for them. Doubtful in this case. I also know that ammunition manufacturers use standard canister powder as well. I would never "guess" without data to back it up nor would I ever go straight to that suspected load without working up from known starting data of what powder I thought it was. The question in my original post is "Are there any other powders out there that resemble 800x"? And 9 grains of 800x is a max load by Hodgdon for a 200 grain bullet.

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[243winxb]

http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=92 Photos & data of powders.

 

[Rule3]

I think I have it!!

 

[crimsoncomet]

http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=92 Photos & data of powders.

Awesome site! Thank you!

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[Jesse Heywood]

From everything you listed, I would say it could be 800-X. But as I learned in chemistry classes, sensory testing only says maybe.

800-X is one of two favorite powders for 45 Colt. My only complaint is metering, which is like trying to measure dried cow manure with a 5 gallon bucket. But with a Uniflow, I get a throw with +/- .1 grain, so I don't complain. Use a magnum primer for a complete burn. Taffin shows 9.0-9.5 gr. behind a 255 Keith style, I load 9.0 gr. for my house gun. Makes a very shootable round.

Buy a pound and give it a try, you won't be disappointed.

 

[crimsoncomet]

From everything you listed, I would say it could be 800-X. But as I learned in chemistry classes, sensory testing only says maybe.

800-X is one of two favorite powders for 45 Colt. My only complaint is metering, which is like trying to measure dried cow manure with a 5 gallon bucket. But with a Uniflow, I get a throw with +/- .1 grain, so I don't complain. Use a magnum primer for a complete burn. Taffin shows 9.0-9.5 gr. behind a 255 Keith style, I load 9.0 gr. for my house gun. Makes a very shootable round.

Buy a pound and give it a try, you won't be disappointed.

Thank you for the information! I completely understand the sensory factor as I work in a testing lab. I have two pounds of 800x sitting on my shelf. It's been my go to for my hunting 10mm rounds for a long time. I'm relatively new to the 45 colt, and I'm already in love. I'll give it a shot with some of my 260gr Keith's. Glad to hear someone else is an 800x fan.

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[Jim Watson]

Note that 800X production has been moved to Alliant instead of IMR.
Do Alliant incorporate a color flake (like they do for Red Dot etc.)?

While Barnes likely buys bulk powder, I doubt they get a special formula for their relatively small operation. I think they take something suitable and load it to production lot test data. Call it 799 3/4 X. Maybe 801X next month.

 

[morcey2]

Note that 800X production has been moved to Alliant instead of IMR.
Do Alliant incorporate a color flake (like they do for Red Dot etc.)?

While Barnes likely buys bulk powder, I doubt they get a special formula for their relatively small operation. I think they take something suitable and load it to production lot test data. Call it 799 3/4 X. Maybe 801X next month.

It was moved to the Hodgdon label, not Alliant, along with all of the non-rifle powders that were wearing the IMR brand.

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[Jim Watson]

Let me bring you up to date.
Hodgdon did indeed put their label on all the non Improved Military Rifle powders made for them by IMR in Canada.

They ALSO shifted sourcing of the whole Clays series of powders from ADI Australia to IMR and 800X (also 700X) from IMR to Alliant, but all still bearing the Hodgdon label.

ADI is changing their lineup and I presume they were not much interested in reproducing the burn rate of the powders sold here as Clays, International, and Universal. So Hodgdon is getting stuff of the same nominal burn rate made by IMR.

I read one Internet Rumor that Hodgdon contracted for the equivalent of 700X (also 800X) from Alliant; because Trapshooters were unhappy with the quality of of IMR 700X.

Easy to check.
Look on the shelf of your well stocked reloading store (if you can find one) and see where the powder is made.
Made in Australia (ADI, now Thales), Canada (IMR), or USA (Alliant if flake, St Marks if "spherical".)

 

[GW Staar]

The question in my original post is "Are there any other powders out there that resemble 800x"?
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Looks real similar to Unique to me.....very close to the same size flakes too. Loading data won't be the same.

It'd be nice if you could ask Barnes.......that's the only for sure way.

 

[Slamfire]

Ammunition companies buy powder by price. Whatever is cheapest, so they can sell you that box of ammunition at a fixed price and make more profit. They have pressure testing equipment and therefore know the charge weights and the pressures. Also, as stated earlier, they don't buy the blended stuff you buy. Our gunpowder is blended to meet an average. Theirs is the raw stuff, Ammunition companies don't need blended because they can measure the pressure.

Don't assume that the powder came from the same sources as American powders. This powder might be Chinese, Indian, European, Russian, etc.

 

[crimsoncomet]

Let me bring you up to date.
Hodgdon did indeed put their label on all the non Improved Military Rifle powders made for them by IMR in Canada.

They ALSO shifted sourcing of the whole Clays series of powders from ADI Australia to IMR and 800X (also 700X) from IMR to Alliant, but all still bearing the Hodgdon label.

ADI is changing their lineup and I presume they were not much interested in reproducing the burn rate of the powders sold here as Clays, International, and Universal. So Hodgdon is getting stuff of the same nominal burn rate made by IMR.

I read one Internet Rumor that Hodgdon contracted for the equivalent of 700X (also 800X) from Alliant; because Trapshooters were unhappy with the quality of of IMR 700X.

Easy to check.
Look on the shelf of your well stocked reloading store (if you can find one) and see where the powder is made.
Made in Australia (ADI, now Thales), Canada (IMR), or USA (Alliant if flake, St Marks if "spherical".)

Awesome info Jim! I knew hodgdon had re-labeled 700x and 800x, but I had no idea that the manufacturing plants had changed. Alliant may not be putting the brown indicator flakes in the powder as IMR was. All the 800x I have is made in Canada by IMR. My local gun Shop has the hodgdon labeled 800x, I may pick a pound up just for interest. Thanks again.

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[crimsoncomet]

Looks real similar to Unique to me.....very close to the same size flakes too. Loading data won't be the same.

It'd be nice if you could ask Barnes.......that's the only for sure way.

It is definitely not unique. The flakes are black instead of gray, and they are too large to be unique. I might give Barnes a call, but I'm sure they will not divulge any information due to liability purposes. But hey, it's worth a shot.

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[243winxb]

https://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html The MSDS ,if up to date, gives manufacturer on some powder. Note in the photos, a powder may come in 2 different colors. https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/lab/fo...ations/fsc/april2002/mccord.htm#disablemobile

 

[crimsoncomet]

So I stopped by my local gun store today. They had 800x on the shelf. It still says made I Canada at this time. I wonder if it's going to be a slow transition to Alliant.

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[hdwhit]

Hodgdon's Hi-Skor 800x that I bought at Cabella's in March says "Made in Canada, Packaged in USA". It is a flake powder and does NOT contain any colored markers.