Powder preservation

[Akula69]

Not sure whether this has been addressed before, but here goes:

I am wondering whether the powder that I (we?) have on hand would be better preserved inside the original, unopened containers or safer sealed in a loaded round. Both would be stored properly in a climate-controlled environment...the loaded rounds are further protected in 1K round sealed bags with desiccant packs.

Specifics: I have 4 lbs. of AA#5 that I plan on using for .38 special. I have the projectiles and cases ready to go for loading...but I've had the powder now (in the original containers) for 4 years and don't want to lose it. The powder is stored in a powder cabinet at ~50% humidity and 67 degrees (as are all the loaded rounds). I probably go thru about 2K .38 rounds per year in instructor requalification and practice.

What do the masses say?

 

[JimKirk]

In the original container... sealed tight, cool and out of Sunlight...
It would also be "tradeable" or more so than loaded ammo.... My opinion...

 

[bullseye308]

In the original container seems to be fine for at least 35+ years for me. All stored inside the house in my case.

 

[Varminterror]

Safer, more stable, in the original containers.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Ive wondered if purging the containers with nitrogen or other inert gas would help.

 

[dgod]

Personally, I keep my 4# and 1# at 74% inside a 84 Gun Safe

Just my $0.02

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Ive wondered if purging the containers with nitrogen or other inert gas would help.

Nitrogen is not inert. I’m not sure what might happen if nitrogen and nitroglycerin were in close contact for an extended time. Probably not much but it might accelerate decay.

If you want an inert gas always go for the Nobles: helium, xenon, neon, etc. The right column on the chart is where you want to be.

 

[Ifishsum]

You're not going to lose any powder after 4 years, or even 14 - Probably way longer than that I'd wait to load it in case your needs or preferences change, or as was said if you ever need to liquidate - components in original containers can be sold but reloads are near worthless to most folks except the person who loaded it.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Nitrogen is not inert. I’m not sure what might happen if nitrogen and nitroglycerin were in close contact for an extended time. Probably not much but it might accelerate decay.

If you want an inert gas always go for the Nobles: helium, xenon, neon, etc. The right column on the chart is where you want to be.

I did misspeak. I appreciate the semantic correction for sure.

I use nitrogen at work to dispel oxygen and moisture... my thinking was to that effect. Dispel oxygen, and delay decay.

 

[1976B.L.Johns.]

Ive wondered if purging the containers with nitrogen or other inert gas would help.

Do you have access to nitrogen? Or an inert gas?
Not many do..........

I did when my Dad worked for Union Carbide, but that was decades ago...........

 

[Laphroaig]

At 2K rounds a year that powder will be gone in 4 or 5 years. It's not worth fretting over, especially considering his storage situation, which seams ideal.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Do you have access to nitrogen? Or an inert gas?
Not many do..........

I did when my Dad worked for Union Carbide, but that was decades ago...........

Yes sir!
any hvac supply house would have it...
But as the gentleman GeoDudeFlorida pointed out.... nitrogen may not be a fantastic idea, because of the composition of that which we're trying to extend the life of. (Slaps forehead)
But helium is! And that is also readily available.

 

[1976B.L.Johns.]

But helium is! And that is also readily available.

Not true!
Helium has been in short supply, world-wide.
Since it has been discovered a bit south of my location, that may change!
Maybe one of the largest discoveries in history in North America, near Babbitt, MN a bit over 1200 or so feet underground.
Google it!

 

[Ironicaintit]

Not true!
Helium has been in short supply, world-wide.
Since it has been discovered a bit south of my location, that may change!
Maybe one of the largest discoveries in history in North America, near Babbitt, MN a bit over 1200 or so feet underground.
Google it!

i am vaguely aware of the shortage, and recent bonanza.... okay so, last i knew, one could go buy tanks of helium. The "readily " part may be in question.

 

[CQB45ACP]

I would simply add, based on the many many photos posted here of ancient cans of Hercules and other powders, it’ll last longer than you’ll need it to by keeping it in the container.

 

[Walkalong]

Time and heat are the enemy of smokeless power, keep it cool, keep it dry, keep it in the original container, quit worrying, check it before you use it.

Some has been known to go bad in ten years, some is forty years old and just fine. It's breaking down from the instant it's made. Not much you can do
to stop it, just delay it keeping it cool.

 

[jmorris]

Original container, never seen powder do this in one of them.



Even if it's been in there for decades.

 

[Slamfire]

The lifetime of nitrocellulose is determined by the stability of its the double bonded NO molecules. A mixture of nitric acid and sulfuric acid is used in the process to create nitrocellulose. Even though solvents are used to remove excess acids, some residual acid always remains. Residual acids not removed break down nitrocellulose, the amount left after "washing", you have no control over. Flooding the container with nitrogen is going to do nothing in terms of acid reduction or slowing the breakdown on the nitrate ester molecules. All ionic compounds attack those double bonds, water is polar covalent, so it acts ionic. Water molecules in the air, call it humidity, land on the propellant grain, wick nitroglycerin to the surface, and attack the double bonded NO molecules. Nitroglycerin attacks the double bonds of the nitrate esters, so double base powders have half the lifetime of single base.

In terms of storage, heat is probably the worst. Heat is used in accelerated aging of gunpowder. Heat ages gunpowder fast.

Keep your gunpowder cool and dry. Break the seals, sniff the stuff. If it smells bitter, it has really deteriorated, dump it out before it burns your house down.

I do not recommend loading cases with gunpowder and then having the ammunition sit around for decades. One or two decades is enough. I have lost a lot of good brass because the gunpowder inside went bad.

Pull bullets on old ammunition and look for green corrosion. Gunpowder outgasesses NOx as it breaks down. Nitrogen dioxide is one of the molecules of NOx, and it is horribly corrosive. Corrosion , or fuming red nitrogen dioxide is proof the stabilizer is about all gone, and the powder is ready to autocombust.

This powder did not smell, but I pulled all the bullets and dumped the stuff.

Powder does not look bad, the green is brass corrosion, powder does not smell. But I did not trust it.

 

[lightman]

Original container, never seen powder do this in one of them.

View attachment 1207384

Even if it's been in there for decades.

View attachment 1207389

I vote original container for exactly this reason. Plus, sealed jugs of powder retain some value while loaded ammo probably doesn't.

 

[jmorris]

I vote original container for exactly this reason. Plus, sealed jugs of powder retain some value while loaded ammo probably doesn't.

And as soon as I load up a bazillion rounds, they change the rules, I find another load I like better or get a new something I would try if I hadn't used up my components....

 

[HowardC]

So, maybe I'm interpreting wrong....
One pic shows "IMR4831", and others say "WWII"...
Does that mean one is commercial IMR 4831, and the others are powder left from old powders left or scavanged from old military stores?

I guess I'll go pull some old rounds and check some.

OTOH, I did find some old Federal commercial 308 with outside corrosion, which, checking with Federal, they replied it had been manufactured in the mid '90's.

Sorta goes to the idea of not loading tons of ammo ahead of yourself. ie, keep loaded ammo to your immediate shooting needs.

-West out

 

[Jim Watson]

As I recall, IMR 4831 was made in WWII for 20mm ammunition.
It and surplus IMR 4895 got Hodgdon started in business.
So yes, until surplus stocks ran out or visibly deteriorated and led Hodgdon to have imitations made, there was a lot of WWII powder being loaded for years.
DuPont eventually caught on and started selling them but age and "what lot number do we take as standard" led to them being entirely separate products.

I don't think the OP has anything to worry about with 4 year old powder stored cool and dry.
I do wonder which AA5 he has. Accurate/Western/Hodgdon have bought powder literally all over the world and called it AA5 (2, 7, 9 also.)

 

[Varminterror]

Nitrogen gas is EXCEPTIONALLY commonly used as inert gas blankets in industrial applications all over the world, as well as oxygen displacing and other purge gas applications. Inert in most applications isn’t necessarily synonymous with inert in ALL applications, however. Nitrogen is certainly considered an inert gas, industrially.

Exposed to nitrogen gas, nitrocellulose decay would be retarded, as nitrogen gas is a product of the decomposition reaction of NC, so technically, the nitrogen blanket WOULD slow the decay. HOWEVER, nitrocellulose will, as slow as it may be in a dry environment, take on more nitrogen through esterification which will destabilize the NC. Double-base powders compounded with nitroglycerin would also see N2 reacting with NG to decay into nitric oxide and glycerin - again, assuming favorable reaction conditions, which are relatively non-existent in a blanketed jar of reloading powder. But those reactions aren’t exactly what we want from our smokeless reloading powders, and the entire thought experiment is really much ado about nothing, since we know storing powders in cool, dry storage away from sunlight can, will, and does sustain powder longer than any of us will live.

 

[Varminterror]

Do you have access to nitrogen? Or an inert gas?
Not many do..........

Not many folks would have a nitrogen gas canister sitting around their garage, but it’s not a controlled substance - EVERYONE has access to it. Welding supply, medical supply, and air gas supply shops all over the country sell it as course of regular business. I live in a village of 3k in central KS, and there are at least 6 places I can purchase N2 gas within an hour of my home (and a couple from which I can buy liquid N2, which is more fun)…

 

[Jim Watson]

I am a long way from P-chem but I figure the reaction rate of cold elemental nitrogen is bound to be lower than humid air. Which is mostly nitrogen, so if nitrogen is going to attack nitrocellulose, it is going to anyhow.

If you want to get tough with it, check with your local welding supply dealer. The blanket gas for TIG is argon which is a noble gas and is produced in an air separation plant so the supply is effectively inexhaustible.