Powder went bad

[Walkalong]

Picked up a 1 Lb jar of N130 to load with today. It is from my 8 lb jug. When I screwed the top off there was brown dust around the threads and on the inside of the cap....... rut ro .... And it smells like ammonia.

The powder looks fine, but it is obviously going bad. Dang....6 lbs of N130 down the drain. It is only 10 or so years old. The N133 next to it is fine, as is the H322, the SRB-118, and the 2230-S, and they are all as old as the N130, or older. I have three old cans (metal cans) of IMR powder (3031, 4895, 4759) that is fine, and it is older than any of it.

Bummer.

 

[NCsmitty]

So the powder in the 8lb jug is bad too, or just the 1lb? Maybe the pounder wasn't sealed good and the 8lb jug is. That can make a difference.



NCsmitty

 

[kimbernut]

Checked out the remainder?

Have you checked the balance in the jug closely? I'm with NC- it may be OK. I've had powder 30 years old and from some pretty poor storage situations that was given to me. I checked it out very thouroughly but it was fine.

 

[rcmodel]

That must be one of those Slick Willie era reloading components with a planned expiration date I keep hearing about on Al Gores intranet!

Serously, sounds like a bum deal to me if the whole 8 pounds went south so soon!!

rc

 

[Waywatcher]

Thanks for sharing, I've always been wondering what it starts to do and look like.

Do you think the climate down there had something to do with it?

It is dryer than a desert up here this time of year until it thaws.

I'm thinking about opening up my powder containers and letting the air suck out the moisture for a few minutes.

 

[243winxb]

Powder Gone Bad-You need to Shoot more and Faster.

I feel the metal in some cans might go bad, then it contaminates the powder. A 1lb can of IMR 4895 went bad, but others right next to it were OK. Problem was the lot numbers are not readable, so unknow if the same vintage. Still sour grapes when powder goes bad.

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[ants]

That's a bummer, Ant.
What do you use N130 for? 222 Rem?
I've always used N135 if I buy VV, it works for light varmint stuff.



I like the 243Winxb post above.

 

[Slamfire]

Picked up a 1 Lb jar of N130 to load with today. It is from my 8 lb jug. When I screwed the top off there was brown dust around the threads and on the inside of the cap....... rut ro .... And it smells like ammonia.

The powder looks fine, but it is obviously going bad. Dang....6 lbs of N130 down the drain. It is only 10 or so years old. The N133 next to it is fine, as is the H322, the SRB-118, and the 2230-S, and they are all as old as the N130, or older. I have three old cans (metal cans) of IMR powder (3031, 4895, 4759) that is fine, and it is older than any of it.

Well that is unusual. N130 is a single based powder, since the Army scraps single base at 45 years, you would think a can of it would last longer than ten years.

Its aging would have been accelerated if the stuff had been stored in a hot oven.

This helps refute those who believe that powder has an indefinite storage life. It does not. It is a high energy compound that wants to break down to a low energy compound.

I have tossed out kegs of surplus IMR 4895, about 16 pounds all went bad. I was just pouring money down the drain.

Your Vitavouri is a heck of a lot pricer than my surplus powder, so Ouch!

 

[Walkalong]

Yea, ouch.

Yes, the 8 lb jug smells bad too. More like chlorine than ammonia really. None of the powder has any brown dust on it yet (even under magnification), it was only present on the metal lid of the 1 lb jar (Hodgdon plastic 1 pounder) where I assume the fumes reacted with the metal.

I bought it to try in 6PPC, & ended up using N133, as did most folks. Still have an unopened 8 pounder of that with close to a lb left from the previous 8 pounder.

It works great in .223. [23.2 Grs and 55 Gr pills in the 91.2 to 93.4 Gr military and commercial brass I was using plops all the brass in a little pile close to the shooter, is super clean, and very accurate when used with good bullets]

I used some about a month ago and it was fine then.

Well that is unusual. N130 is a single based powder

My first thought....well, first after #$@&%

 

[Shimitup]

Strange how powder can do that. My Uncle gave me several cans of his Reloder 7, older Hercules stuff in the cardboard/metal containers. The bottom fell out of one unopened container yet the one next to it with the same lot# was perfectly fine, yet another older can already opened also fine.

 

[LiveLife]

Look at it this way, it's a blessing in disguise.

Imagine if you had loaded a bunch of ammo and the powder went bad inside the case!

I think it's always better to find bad powder before it goes "fizz" at the range or when you really need it.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I was going to ask for photos to help educate the unknowing, but 243winxb provided some.

And so y'all know, powder deterioration is caused by global warming.

 

[Walkalong]

By the time you can see it bad, it's been bad for some time.

 

[rfwobbly]

Picked up a 1 Lb jar of N130 to load with today. It is from my 8 lb jug. When I screwed the top off there was brown dust around the threads and on the inside of the cap....... rut ro .... And it smells like ammonia.

The answer is obvious. You need to post it on Flea-Bay for $999 as limited edition, not available in any store, vintage, old school, and collectible.




PS. Be sure and charge $100 more for shipping.

 

[LiveLife]

So here's a question for long-term storage of ammo in regards to powder going bad.

Since this powder went bad for Walkalong when he did not expect it, how will we know if powder goes bad inside loaded ammo?

For long-term storage ammo, do you always use "newer" powder?

How often do you rotate out your reloaded ammo stock?

 

[snuffy]

Rut-ro huh? Maybe scooby had something to do with it? Notice him lifting his leg around yer powder?


I had a can of IMR 4198 go bad recently. Can of the same right next to it is fine.

 

[243winxb]

how will we know if powder goes bad inside loaded ammo?

On firing you get a click- bang, or bette know as a hang fire.

For long-term storage ammo, do you always use "newer" powder?

Good idea, never thought of it.

How often do you rotate out your reloaded ammo stock?

I am not stockpiling 223 anymore, as some brass went bad over 20 years. Other wise i load during winter, shoot it all up in summer. Then reload next winter.

 

[Slamfire]

So here's a question for long-term storage of ammo in regards to powder going bad.

Since this powder went bad for Walkalong when he did not expect it, how will we know if powder goes bad inside loaded ammo?

Half of all the surplus IMR 4895 I purchased went bad.

The first lot of 16 lbs, I used up eight pounds quickly. The last eight pounds of the first lot sat around. When I opened the bottle top, it smelled bitter. Red dust flew around.

I gave it to a machine gunner guy. He put it in the laundry room. The bottle got a piece of laundry over it and over night acid gas from the bottle ate holes in the laundry. That freaked my friend and he poured the stuff out over the lawn.

Since then I have had other lots of surplus 4895 powder go bad but in the case. I found green corrosion on the bottom of the bullets and cracked case necks.

First indications that I had a problem were that I had a lot of split case necks on fired cartridges. Then case necks started to crack on unfired ammunition. When I pulled bullets, I smelt nothing, in the case or in the bottle, but I found green corrosion on the bottom of bullets. I believe that nitric acid was weakening the work hardened areas of the case, and causing corrosion on the bottom of the bullets.

Incidentally, the powder shot exceptionally well in cases that did not have case neck cracks. I shot some exceptional scores with the stuff at 600 yards with 168 Match bullets. I had "funny" retorts on some rounds. I discussed this with a Navy Energics expert, and he told me as the surface of gun powder changes, burn rates are affected.

As double based powders detoriate they become surface rich in nitro gylcerine even though the total energy content of the powder is being reduced. This can cause pressure spikes.

This specialist explained that powder deteriorates from the day it leaves the factory. The nitrocellulose and nitro glycerin want to combine to form a lower energy molecule. Nitric acid gas is released in the chemical reaction. The rate of combination is directly related to temperature. The higher the temperature the faster the reaction. Powder contains stabilizers. The Navy samples its powders and propellants. If the powder is outgassing nitric gas (as determined by a paper that changes color (Methly Violet test, or Talliani test)), the stuff is tested to see how much stabilizer is left. If the amount is less than or equal to 20%, the lot is scrapped.

The Army does it different. The Army scraps small arms powders by time. Double based powders and ammunition are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years.


I was told that when enough nitric acid is released, the powder will spontaneously combust. The expert diagramed the chemical reaction and drew arrows for hot spots. Hot spots develop in the powder as energy is released. Since the US Military is extremely scandal sensitive, they won’t tell anyone that any of their big bunkers have blown up, but they have. Ammunition depots go Kaboom all the time due to old ammunition spontaneously combusting. You can Google this and find incident reports in the literature. But you won’t find mention of some of the American ammunition incidents that this expert investigated. We Googled one incident he wrote a report on and found nothing in the public domain.

I found this on the web: “ Seven propellant autoignition incidents, some involving 100,000 pounds or more of powder, occurred at Army installations in the 1980s and 1990s. Although it has been 10 years since the last accident, constant vigilance is required.”

Did you ever hear of any of these? I have not either!


Government Rule #2: Minimize Scandal

But there are examples of depots going Kaboom on the web, even if they are not in the US.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=13c_1205681217

The expert suggested that it is likely that surplus military powders are not on the market anymore due to liability issues. The stuff was scrapped because the military decided it was not safe to keep around anymore.

If the powder has turned red, or smells like acid, it is way beyond its safe limits.

I talked to Alliant powders. They told me that if the plating inside the old cans is has rust spots, the powder is doing that, and the powder should be dumped.

For this reason, I do not think it is advisable to mix old powders with new. Why have the whole lot go bad?

Extra reading for those who are interested:

www.dtic.mil/dticasd/sbir/sbir031/n154.doc

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/JulAug08/propellant_stab_eq.html

 

[fatelk]

What is it with surplus 4895 in particular? I had some surplus 4895 go very bad a few years ago. Brown dust, bad smell, even a brown acidic gas. For some time afterwords I found the occasional box of ammo I had reloaded with it and much of it was corroding from the inside out. I had to scrap a lot of components.

Makes me wonder about all the old surplus 30-06 folks bought from the CMP. A bunch of the old ap ammo from Greece seemed to have powder problems, corroding from the inside out also.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Sorry you took a hit AC... These days losing 6+lbs of powder is a big hit to the pocket not to mention sometimes it's hard to replace too.

 

[Slamfire]

What is it with surplus 4895 in particular? I had some surplus 4895 go very bad a few years ago. Brown dust, bad smell, even a brown acidic gas.

It was 45 years old before you got it. It was scrapped because it was at the end of its shelf life.

I am not buying any more surplus powders as it turned out to be false economy.

 

[USSR]

I've got about 45# of surplus IMR4895, and have had it for years, and have had zero problems. Of course, I have it stored under what is probably ideal conditions (unheated basement in the NorthEast).

Don