practical .380 use?

[Ala Dan]

I think any .380 acp is a last ditch, go too weapon, when the chips
are down. I own several [including the Bersa Thunder Duo-tone], that I
use primarily as a BUG of some sort. Lets face it, NO ONE that I know
would want to have a magazine of Hornady Critical Defense ammo headed
for their onion~! It just does not make sense, as they more than likely
would be dead as a door nail~!

So, point is- don't under estimate the power of the little .380 ACP, with
the proper loading.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

I can shoot this one for the same price....


as I can shoot this one...

Never thought that would be but not much diff in the ammo price between the two.

 

[Buck Snort]

Weevil wrote: "They act as if the badguy is gonna catch the bullets from a .380 with his teeth and spit them back at you, where as a 9mm is gonna pick 'em off the ground and hurl them through the air and of course a hit from a .45 will cause them to burst like a blood filled water-balloon."

Well dang it all Weevil, ain't you never gone to the movies?!

 

[Buck Snort]

Weevil wrote: "Power is a fine thing but so is control and it's hard to keep a gun on target when it's knocking holes in your forehead after every shot."

It's just really upsetting when that happens.

 

[Buck Snort]

I just don't get this "caliber don't make no difference" talk. If that were the case then people would be hunting cape buffalo with pellet guns.

 

[christcorp]

Handguns are the most INEFFICIENT means of protecting oneself with a firearm. As such, shot placement is everything. Whether it's a 22, 32, 9mm, 40, or 357 magnum. The only advantage heavier and larger diameter bullets give you is a slightly better chance of hitting that vital organ or CNS. But for everything you gain on caliber, you give up something. The only reason we even have pistols is because it's too inconvenient to walk around with a high powered rifle or a shotgun.

 

[Airman193SOS]

For all the arguments that are made about ammunition, it really comes down to shot placement. If you hit someone repeatedly in a vital area it makes no difference what you hit him with.

The typical rhetorical argument in this regard is to challenge someone who thinks that a particular caliber is poor or useless to stand there and let you shoot him with it. Of course, the implication is that they will change their tune very quickly.

I certainly would not recommend that you do anything like that, but the point stands: while a larger caliber is undoubtedly better overall in all categories, a smaller round with appropriate placement is just as lethal.

For the record, I have no qualms carrying a .380 ACP handgun. You shouldn't either.

 

[easyg]

If you hit someone repeatedly in a vital area it makes no difference what you hit him with.

This is simply not true.
Bullet caliber does make a difference.

If I feel that I need to shoot someone then it's going to be because I think that my life is in danger.
And if I shoot them I want them to stop as quick as possible.
And real life shootings have shown than some calibers are more effective at quickly stopping a human aggressor than other calibers.
With equal shot placement, a .22 Short is simply not going to have the same effect on the target as a .45ACP or a .357 Magnum.

Those who say that caliber makes no difference are just lying to themselves.

As for the .380....
Yeah, it can get the job done, but it's not as effective at quickly stopping human aggressors as the 9mm Luger, the .40S&W, the .357Sig, the .45ACP, the .45GAP, the .357 magnum, and the 10mm.
Even the .38 Special can best the .380 in some loadings.

I wouldn't want to be shot with a .380, but if I had to be shot, and I could choose the caliber from the list above, I would choose the .380 because my chances of surviving the shooting would be greatest with the .380 (all other things being equal).

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

So basically I am looking for anyone, either police or otherwise, that have ever found themselves using a .380. Is it a viable round? Or is this more like a "make noise and run" type weapon?

most .380 jhp's don't have enough momentum to expand reliably.

using .380 fmj's are certainly better than nothing, but i personally wouldn't carry any less than a 9mm. .380 statistics are less than encouraging.


not sure why there's a surge of pocket .380 popularity all of a sudden. nobody carried them a few years ago when it costed less than .45acp

 

[TEXMEX]

Buck Snort says: I just don't get this "caliber don't make no difference" talk. If that were the case then people would be hunting cape buffalo with pellet guns.
----------------------------------------------------

Right! And the police and military would all be carrying .380's as primary weapons, and .25's as BUG's!!!

 

[Old Shooter]

TEXMEX wrote:

It happened to me when I came face to face with a big aggressive bear at 10 feet and all I had was my pocket pistol. Never realized how punny my small 9mm was until that moment of devine understanding.

That would be quite an event and I can understand your feelings, but you evidently survived the encounter. Did you kill the bear or out-run him?

 

[Weevil]

This is simply not true.
Bullet caliber does make a difference.

If I feel that I need to shoot someone then it's going to be because I think that my life is in danger.
And if I shoot them I want them to stop as quick as possible.
And real life shootings have shown than some calibers are more effective at quickly stopping a human aggressor than other calibers.
With equal shot placement, a .22 Short is simply not going to have the same effect on the target as a .45ACP or a .357 Magnum.

Those who say that caliber makes no difference are just lying to themselves.

As for the .380....
Yeah, it can get the job done, but it's not as effective at quickly stopping human aggressors as the 9mm Luger, the .40S&W, the .357Sig, the .45ACP, the .45GAP, the .357 magnum, and the 10mm.
Even the .38 Special can best the .380 in some loadings.

I wouldn't want to be shot with a .380, but if I had to be shot, and I could choose the caliber from the list above, I would choose the .380 because my chances of surviving the shooting would be greatest with the .380 (all other things being equal).

Good post.


Yes there is indeed a difference in calibers.


That's why we have all those different calibers in the first place.


And bigger calibers are better stoppers that's why my HD pistol is a 10mm.


I also agree that if it came down to it I'd rather take my chances getting shot with a .380 instead of a 10mm.


However big powerhouse calibers are not the end all and be all, especially when used in small lightweight pistols. With that power comes a loss of control, you don't get something for nothing, that's why the bigger calibers are called "duty" rounds and are carried by the police and military in large full-size "duty" pistols not wee little CCW size pistols.

I'm not going to be hunting cape buffalo with a derringer and being able to control my weapon and put my shots on target is a high priority. If I'm hunting large game with a handgun then I want that .44 magnum or 500 S&W but in a big huge gun that can handle that kind of power and give me some control not an itty-bitty little pistol I can stick in my pocket.


It all comes down to having the right tool for the job.


In small lightweight pistols for CCW use the .380 gives a good balance of power and control.



If you feel the need to carry an itty-bitty CCW size pistol that's capable of bringing down cape buffalo then by all means do what you gotta do.

 

[CraigC]

I heard about a feller that had a custom Single Six built in .380 and it's all he uses for squirrels.

 

[IMTHDUKE]

That would be quite an event and I can understand your feelings, but you evidently survived the encounter. Did you kill the bear or out-run him?

Only bear a man out runs is one that wants to be out run.

 

[Buck Snort]

Christcorp wrote: "The only advantage heavier and larger diameter bullets give you is a slightly better chance of hitting that vital organ or CNS."

Well, if penetration counts for anything (and the FBI seems to think so) then a heavier bullet should be expected to penetrate deeper. Yeah, I'll carry a .380 if conditions prevent me from pack'n my Colt Commander, otherwise I'm opting for the heavier bullet.

 

[Buck Snort]

Airman193SOS wrote: "For all the arguments that are made about ammunition, it really comes down to shot placement. If you hit someone repeatedly in a vital area it makes no difference what you hit him with."

Patently false on the face of it.

 

[christcorp]

Christcorp wrote: "The only advantage heavier and larger diameter bullets give you is a slightly better chance of hitting that vital organ or CNS."

Well, if penetration counts for anything (and the FBI seems to think so) then a heavier bullet should be expected to penetrate deeper. Yeah, I'll carry a .380 if conditions prevent me from pack'n my Colt Commander, otherwise I'm opting for the heavier bullet.

That's great buck. Now, consider that approximately 70% of shots miss their target in self defense situations. These are reported stats by New York City and Los Angeles Law Enforcement agencies of THEIR OWN PATROLMEN. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html?pagewanted=print
I will put my 66 year old mother, and her Walther PPK 32acp, up again MANY of the people on this forum who think they are some spectacular "Gun fighter". There is a lot to be said for carrying a 32acp or 380acp and hitting your target; under stressful conditions, more times than shooting with a 45acp or 40sw, and hitting the target less times.

 

[btg3]

hmmm... why doncha see .380 at IDPA? Defensive Pistol or "not exactly"?

 

[IMTHDUKE]

hmmm... why doncha see .380 at IDPA? Defensive Pistol or "not exactly"?

Just reading and learning here. A novice....what is IDPA?

 

[Airman193SOS]

Airman193SOS wrote: "For all the arguments that are made about ammunition, it really comes down to shot placement. If you hit someone repeatedly in a vital area it makes no difference what you hit him with."

Patently false on the face of it.

Is that so? Which weapons account for the majority of firearms deaths in the United States every single year? Small caliber handguns.

I can think of several thousand people that would take issue with your abject dismissal of my assertion, but they can't because they're dead. More's the pity.

 

[Weevil]

hmmm... why doncha see .380 at IDPA? Defensive Pistol or "not exactly"?

Because they don't have a division for small CCW type pistols???



From the IDPA rule book:


The firearms are grouped into five (5) divisions:
1) Custom Defensive Pistol (.45ACP semi-automatics only);
2) Enhanced Service Pistol (9mm(9x19) or larger caliber semi-automatics);
3) Stock Service Pistol(9mm (9x19) or larger caliber double action, double action only, or
safe action semi-automatics);
4) Enhanced Service Revolver (.38caliber or larger double action revolvers);
5) Stock Service Revolver(.38 caliber or larger double action revolvers).


The IDPA is for service weapons which are generally considerd open-carry types, not small pocket pistols or BUGs.

I doubt very much you're gonna see anybody trying to compete with any itty-bitty 9mm's like a Kel-Tec or Rohrbaugh R9 either.

I wouldn't go any lower than 9mm in a full-size service pistol either, especially when pistols of this size have excellent control with 9mm.



Another thing to consider is most IDPA shooters compete with light target loadings, not full-house-ground-thumping-nuclear +P+ self-defense loadings.

Now why do you suppose they do that???

Could it possibly be because they get faster follow-ups and better times with light easily controlled loads???

 

[M&PVolk]

The .380, like all pistol calibers, is a trade off of sorts. You must decide the criteria of your individual needs and select a caliber accordingly. All calibers (even the lowly .22 LR) can be deadly when they hit a vital area, and the opposite is also true, as many a man has failed to fall from even .357 or .44 mag rounds, which I hold as far superior to any autoloader round on the market.

The .380 gives an advantage in compactness of the platform, as they range from tiny pocket guns like the LCP to ultra-slim larger guns like the Bersa .380. With good ammo, they meet FBI penetration standards sufficiently. The offer low recoil out of larger guns like the Bersa, and moderate recoil out of true pocket guns. Very accurate rapidfire shots are easy from a Bersa, and the recoil you gain from the smaller guns is a trade off for being able to slip the gun in a shirt pocket completely unnoticed. Noise from a .380 is significantly less than a large caliber and may be a boon in indoor situations. Muzzle flash is also greatly reduced vs. a .45.

Problems with the .380 include the need to select really good ammo for maximum performance. Lighter bullets tend to need very high velocity to achieve maximum penetration, and they will lose a lot of that velocity if they must go through an intermediate barrier. Thick or heavy clothing might also be an issue. Contact with major bone structures may also create yet another obstacle to as deep a penetration as you want. You may not get as dramatic a psychological effect on your attacker (which is what actually is responsible for the majority of handgun "stopping power") with a .380.

If you can shoot and carry a larger caliber comfortably, then there may be advantages to going up from the .380. How far bigger is up to you and you should not feel pressured by the "caliber wars" you see so much of on these forums. If you can become a surgeon of sorts with the .380, buy the package that works for you and feel totally comfortable that it will get the job done.

 

[btg3]

Another thing to consider is most IDPA shooters compete with light target loadings, not full-house-ground-thumping-nuclear +P+ self-defense loadings.

Now why do you suppose they do that???

Two possible reasons:
1. 125,000 minimum power floor (bullet weight x velocity)
2. Cost of ammo.

Is there any .380ACP that will satisfy #1?

 

[Weevil]

Two possible reasons:
1. 125,000 minimum power floor (bullet weight x velocity)
2. Cost of ammo.

Is there any .380ACP that will satisfy #1?

Not that I'm aware of but the Hornady XTP will get 90900 and that's out of a 3.8" barrel. It'd be interesting to see what kind of velocity it would get out of the barrel of a full-size service pistol.

Even so 1000 fps out of a 125 or 124 gr. 9mm bullet?

That's a really tame loading for the 9mm and far below the normal 1200+ fps we expect from 9mm SD loadings.

 

[christcorp]

That might be true; but I am quite content with 1000 fps and a 95-115 grain out of my 9mm Makarov. I'm also content with my 75 grain at 1150 fps for my 32acp. And I feel just as comfortable with my 900 fps, 230 grain 45acp. I do prefer the large diameter; hence why I like the 9mm makarov. But even the 32acp will do it's job if you do your job. That's why I spend MORE TIME practicing and handling stress, than I do stressing over different calibers and weight bullets.