Practicality and etiquette questions re: open carry

[Trunk Monkey]

What's her name? You must know her right? Or are you reading her mind from a photograph? How do you have any idea what she is thinking?

Don't know here at all but I can read a face

 

[orionengnr]

What if you were black and that made some people nervous? What if you were gay and that made some people nervous? Or a tattoo? Or a speech impediment? Or a skin disfigurement? My stepdaughter's prosthetic leg makes some people uncomfortable. My crooked eyes make some people uncomfortable. If you are just carrying a firearm in a holster going about your normal everyday business, those people that it makes uncomfortable can simply leave. I refuse to take responsibility for or "respect" their unfounded fears.

^^This. You are doing nothing illegal or immoral. As long as you are polite, you should help educate the ignorant.

Being black isn't a choice

And if you make exercising your rights a "choice", don't be surprised if someone else makes the "choice" to legislate those rights out of existence.

 

[Warp]

It's a Serpa...not a Sherpa.

Just sayin'

 

[Frank Ettin]

It's a Serpa...not a Sherpa.

Thanks for the correction. I've edited my post to correct my mistake.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I have no problem with OC. But I don't particularly like drawing attention to myself for any reason. My motto in life is "just leave me alone". CC facilitates that when around people.

 

[beatledog7]

The problem I have with this is no matter how much you say it that fact is that you don’t get to decide who speaks for you. I’m sure you’ve seen the photo of the couple in the Starbuck with the AR, look at the woman on her computer in the background. She is absolutely disgusted with their display and in her mind those two have already spoken for you.

They speak for only those who don't stand up and deny their message. I do that, so they don't speak for me. If you want to declare that they speak for you just because they speak about a topic that involves you, that's your issue.

And NavyLCDR is right on this one: you cannot know to what that woman is responding.

 

[Spike_akers]

just my opinion, although i do support open carry, i wouldnt advise it. but, if you do, dont half conceal it. it makes people MORE uncomfortable to see something half hidden than blatantly visible.

my reason for not advising open cary, is although in certain areas it is legal. but it tends to make people uneasy. and although something is legal, doesnt make it a good idea, or mean you should do it. when i go hunting i carry my N frame open, when anywhere else, i carry my 1911 concealed. all because of an incident where i made someone rather uncomfortable at a grocery store because my revolver was visible. resulted in me having a talk with a cop, and then freaking everyone out when the leo's came to get me. yeah, its my right to do so, yes its legal, but its something i will no longer be doing. especially how things are right now, its probably not a good idea.

the holster is dangerous. i've heard several instances where the serpa has caused discharges because of the lever as mentioned above. i would personally recommend a leather pancake holster (galco).. if you do end up going concealed, crossbreeds holster is incredibly well built, and comfortable.

 

[SuedePflow]

the holster is dangerous. i've heard several instances where the serpa has caused discharges because of the lever as mentioned above. i would personally recommend a leather pancake holster

It's been covered in this thread already (I assume you didn't read the thread before posting), and you're welcome to your opinion regardless, but the SERPA holster does not and cannot cause a discharge. Improperly placed fingers can though, and the SERPA does not improperly place fingers either. As stated, it's always user error, which could just as easily happen with any gun/holster combo.

I've only ever seen a holster depress the trigger of a holstered gun one time, and it was a severly worn-out leather holster.

 

[Frank Ettin]

It's been covered in this thread already (I assume you didn't read the thread before posting), and you're welcome to your opinion regardless, but the SERPA holster does not and cannot cause a discharge. Improperly placed fingers can though,...

And you apparently didn't read the thread carefully because I addressed that in post 23:

...Human factor engineering is about designing things in a way that considers human capabilities and limitations to reduce the possibilities for operational errors, especially under stress, and to reduce training requirements. The Serpa doesn't seem to do that well.

While it is possible to train to use the Serpa properly and safely, its design makes it especially easy to make a particular, natural and predictable operational error that is dangerous to the user....

The Serpa holster's design makes it especially easy for one to improperly place his fingers. I'd consider that to be a design flaw from a human factors perspective.

...it's always user error, which could just as easily happen with any gun/holster combo...

And no, it cannot. None of the holsters I use require that I place my trigger finger on the holster close to the trigger of the gun in order to actuate a lever to release a retention device. The Serpa is the only holster, as far as I know, that requires that action of the trigger finger; and it is that particular use and placement of the trigger finger that can increase the risk of a particular user error.

The bottom line remains: many instructors will not allow the use of the Serpa in their classes.

 

[SuedePflow]

The Serpa holster's design makes it especially easy for one to improperly place his fingers. I'd consider that to be a design flaw from a human factors perspective.

I disagree.

And no, it cannot. None of the holsters I use require that I place my trigger finger on the holster close to the trigger of the gun in order to actuate a lever to release a retention device. The Serpa is the only holster, as far as I know, that requires that action of the trigger finger; and it is that particular use and placement of the trigger finger that can increase the risk of a particular user error.

My natural draw (with, without, and before ever owning a SERPA) includes having my index finger extended outward and above the trigger gaurd. This is why I liked the SERPA as soon a I got one. I didn't have to change anything about my draw. My natural, safe draw actuated the lock without requiring an extra, deliberate action. And when the gun exits the holster my finger is exactly where I want it to be without moving it. Once I grip the gun (with it holstered), but index finger never moves until I'm ready to fire.

This entire process requires nothing that is not required without a SERPA holster. I see zero increased risk.

 

[SuedePflow]

Where is your index finger when you draw, Frank? How much experience do you have using a SERPA?

 

[Warp]

My finger indexes the holster pretty much identically, Serpa or non-serpa.

The only difference is the pressure applied by that finger when using the Serpa.

It seems to me the only way people might have a problem is if they hook their finger instead of keeping it straight.

 

[SuedePflow]

Regarding applied pressure - I know I don't have to purposefully apply more pressure to unlock it. Just having my finger on the button seems to be enough with my draw. Maybe I have strong fingers... I could see that varying from person to person, though.

 

[Warp]

Regarding applied pressure - I know I don't have to purposefully apply more pressure to unlock it. Just having my finger on the button seems to be enough with my draw. Maybe I have strong fingers... I could see that varying from person to person, though.

I don't think it's a matter of hand or finger strength, simply a matter of how each individual person performs their draw.

For the record I was the first person to respond to this thread, and suggested a different holster other than the Serpa. When I started carrying openly it was with a Serpa, and I still have it. But my concerns are primarily about retention, not the requirement to use your trigger finger to release the gun.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The Serpa holster's design makes it especially easy for one to improperly place his fingers. I'd consider that to be a design flaw from a human factors perspective.

I disagree....

You're free to disagree with me, but a number of folks disagree with you, including the highly respected trainer, the late Paul Gomez, The Federal Law Enforcement Training Facility (based on tests they conducted), and Nick Leghorn (TheTruthAboutGuns.com).

Since all opinions are not equal, I'll go with a highly qualified trainer like Paul Gomez, and a rigorous study by the FLETC. The FLETC report, to which I linked, is an interesting read.

Where is your index finger when you draw, Frank? How much experience do you have using a SERPA?

1. My index finger is right where it belongs.
   
   
2. I have zero experience with a Serpa -- never had one and never will have one. I much prefer leather. But I do have plenty of training and lots of experience drawing a gun -- including years of USPSA competition, classes at Gunsite and elsewhere, and lots of practice.

 

[MartinS]

Get a friend and a fifty dollar bill. Tell him, has to be a him, he gets the fifty if he can yank that iron out the holster in one grab.

 

[scaatylobo]

Sorry but I personally know 'that' guy

Scott ------ of Canada is a martial artist that I was a student of,I was a D/T instructor and I dared him to take my weapon.

I was the weapon retention instructor and was wearing a level 2 security police holster.

He took the gun ,not once --- but three times and I gave up at that point.

If your better than I was,and you can beat his abilitys ----- good for you.

But if you THINK your that good ---- sad for you !.

I thought so too !.

 

[SuedePflow]

I have zero experience with a Serpa -- never had one and never will have one. I much prefer leather. But I do have plenty of training and lots of experience drawing a gun -- including years of USPSA competition, classes at Gunsite and elsewhere, and lots of practice.

I'd recommend developing your own opinion based upon experience. It always seems to work better than being "sure" of something based upon what you heard from others.

The great SERPA debate happens over and over again on every gun forum, and I've noticed that the majority of people that dislike the SERPA have never used one and simply bash it because XXX said he doesn't like them.

I'm not trying to be a dick, but most people would at least expect someone to have used said product before they say it's a poor/great product.

Nick Leghorn (TheTruthAboutGuns.com).

This blog was a complete joke. I'm glad most of the commentors agree.

Ohh the irony in the sentiment that of hundreds of thousands of a holster in circulation, when a couple dozen people cause harm by improperly using the product, they should all be banned from use by everyone. Sounds all too much like the anti-gun rhetoric used by our current administration and other anti-gunners.

The Federal Law Enforcement Training Facility (based on tests they conducted)

Thank you for sharing this link. You're right, it was an interesting read.

It seems the conclusion upon instructors is that without sufficient training, the SERPA can be used improperly by inexperienced users. I would agree with that. I would agree that that applies to anything potentially dangerous (shooting in general, driving a car, sky diving, etc...) In that article, it is spelled out several times that all ND's were a "clear violation of Safety Rule 3". Users placing their finger on the trigger due to duress and inexperience. We know the holster does not place the finger inside of the trigger gaurd, and that the shooter made one or more mistakes that resulted in a violation of Safety Rule 3. And that can even happened to an experienced shooter. But I still find it foolish to blame a holster. That's equivelent to blaming the automobile for the crash instead of recognizing that the crash was the result of a young and inexperienced driver that simply made a mistake, while the vehicle merly facilitated the collision.

People inexperienced with the SERPA forget that the lock needs to be defeated prior to drawing. And some feel the depressing of the button needs to be focused, forceful, and deliberate, when the truth is that if your finger is properly indexed, it will automatically brush up against the lever with enough force to defeat the lock. These shooters that experienced NDs all say their finger slipped because they improperly hooked their finger, or they purposefully entered the trigger gaurd albiet too soon, or forgot to remove their finger from the trigger upon reholstering. These are classic "inexperience" mistakes that can be made by anyone. Just people using it wrong because they don't know any better.

So these instructors simply choose the easy and painfree path of banning a particular holster to avoid requiring a trainee to be experienced and trained to proprly use it prior to class. Banning it means they won't have to spend time teaching anyone how to use it properly and won't have to deal with the aftermath of someone improperly using it. I don't blame them one bit. But that only means it's a product not fit for their class setting. It does NOT imply that the holster is not an excellent option for a person that is familiar and trained to use it.

It seems that the vast majority are using the SERPA successfully and safely regardless of anyones opinion. I feel that's far more definitive that anyone's blog or passed along heresay.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I'd recommend developing your own opinion based upon experience...

• There's a Romanian proverb, "Only the foolish learn from experience — the wise learn from the experience of others."
  
  
• Benjamin Franklin has been reported as having said, "Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other."
  
  
• Douglas Adams has been reported as having said, "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

...I've noticed that the majority of people that dislike the SERPA have never used one and simply bash it because XXX said he doesn't like them...

It's not so much that I dislike the Serpa. But I do understand something about human factors engineering, and the criticisms based on human factors engineering of people whose opinions I have reason to respect make sense, and since the holsters I currently have serve my purposes, I see no reason to play with the Serpa. And I pass on that information.

....It seems the conclusion upon instructors is that without sufficient training, the SERPA can be used improperly by inexperienced users. I would agree with that. ... In that article, it is spelled out several times that all ND's were a "clear violation of Safety Rule 3". Users placing their finger on the trigger due to duress and inexperience....

Yes, and that means that:

1. That is an understood and predictable user error.
   
   
2. The design of the Serpa facilitates that particular user error.
   
   
3. And therefore the design of the Serpa is flawed from a human factors engineering perspective.

 

[SuedePflow]

There's a Romanian proverb, "Only the foolish learn from experience — the wise learn from the experience of others."

Well, what have you learned from the experience of hundreds of thousands of shooters that enjoy properly and safely using the SERPA holster?

That is an understood and predictable user error

Understood? Sure. Predictable? Not so much. It could happen to any shooter with any gun and any holster, but it rarely happens at all.

The design of the Serpa facilitates that particular user error

No more that the automobile facilitates the collision or the pencil facilitates the written words. The user is the one in control and takes complete responsibility for the outcome.

User error is not caused by design and we know this because the exact same design functions perfectly for everyone that uses it properly (free of user error). But I will concede that the design could compound user error. I feel that's really what it boils down to.

And therefore the design of the Serpa is flawed from a human factors engineering perspective.

Wrong. Nothing is 100% idiot-proof and things only function as intended. It's tough to justify a design flaw when the vast majority of users don't experience problems/issues whatsoever.

Could it be more idiot-proof? Some would say 'yes'. Most would say it's fine the way it is. And that opens up an entirly new debate about how much idiot-proofing is enough.

One more interesting point; when you read of other's negligent discharges, one common thing I've noticed is that they ALWAYS take full responsbility for it. They admit that their finger was on the trigger when they didn't intend for it to be. And they admit it was their own doing. Afterall, we're human and sh1t happens... Except for when a SERPA is being used. Then it's the holsters fault and the shooter is somewhat of a victim of "out-of-control defective product". The holster made me do it!

 

[Mitlov]

Setting aside the Serpa debate, should I be carrying at 3-o'clock, 4-o'clock, 4:30? The question is for both open carry and OWB conceal-carry (and eventually IWB conceal-carry if/when I get a IWB holster).

 

[SuedePflow]

Setting aside the Serpa debate, should I be carrying at 3-o'clock, 4-o'clock, 4:30? The question is for both open carry and OWB conceal-carry (and eventually IWB conceal-carry if/when I get a IWB holster).

That will most definitely vary from person to person. You'll have to experiment to find which is more comfortable for you and allows a quick and safe draw.

For me personally, when I carry IWB, I prefer appendix carry. For OWB, I carry at 3 o'clock.

 

[mr.trooper]

The SERPA can be had in higher retention levels with additional lock mechanisms over that of the one commonly seen in chain stores and LGS.

If you are worried about people defeating your retention holster, then you either need to buckle down and take some serious handgun retention classes, or stop carrying openly.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Well, what have you learned from the experience of hundreds of thousands of shooters that enjoy properly and safely using the SERPA holster?

Well I don't know the experiences of hundreds of thousands of shooters using the Serpa. I have only heard about such from a number of anonymous denizens of cyberspace. On the other hand, the cautionary information comes from identified sources of known credibility.

That is an understood and predictable user error

Understood? Sure. Predictable? Not so much. It could happen to any shooter with any gun and any holster, but it rarely happens at all.

Of course the possibility of the particular user error is predictable with the Serpa. It has happened and has been reported and has prompted the FLETC to study the issue and conclude that it reflects a design problem.

As far as it happening with other holsters, I'm not aware of the problem having been reported with other holsters. It seems that the most common ND issue with other holster is the user error of keeping the finger on the trigger when re-holstering.

In any case, the issue with the Serpa involves the need unique to the Serpa to release the retention mechanism with the trigger finger. Apparently, as you pointed out, that needs to be done in a particular way to be safe, and the unintended discharges are caused by a failure to release the retention mechanism correctly.

So in a holster with which it's not necessary to release a retention device with one's trigger finger in the manner in which it's done with the Serpa, the particular problem can not arise.

...No more that the automobile facilitates the collision or the pencil facilitates the written words....

A specious analogy.

With regard to the automobile issue, in fact certain design characteristics of various automobiles have been shown to either unreasonable increase the risk of collisions or exacerbate the consequences; and there has been considerable product liability litigation demonstrating that.

With regard to writing instruments, I've found that some designs do facilitate my writing compared with others. For example, I find it uncomfortable to write documents of any notable length using a stub of a pencil.

 

[Mainsail]

I believe I've seen forum member Mainsail show pictures of his SERPA open carry rig on several occasions. He lives just north of you in Washington state. I believe he has a G20 riding in his SERPA. If he doesn't pop in to the thread, you may want to send him a PM and ask for his opinion.

I use my Serpa all the time, and have drawn from it (practice) probably a thousand times. No matter how fast I draw my finger always ends up on the frame above the trigger.

How? Because I read the freaking instructions.

Every time someone mentions the Serpa somebody declares them unsafe because some halfwit posted a video of him shooting himself. Personally, I'm surprised he was able to set up the video camera or figure out how to post it to youtube. So-and-So training academy doesn't allow them? So what? Obviously their lawyers' advice carried more weight with them than did common sense.

Anyone too stupid to operate a Serpa holster has no business loading a gun.

Whew.