Practice ammo - what is 'good enough'?

[Nando Aqui]

With my scoped Rem-700 PS, shooting with the bipod resting on the bench, I can shoot four rounds at 100-yd and have all four holes touch, usually in an "L" or a "T" configuration. For this, I use .308 Black Hills moly match ammo, $15/box of 20.

With my M1A, using the iron sights and shooting from a rest, I can shoot 10 rounds in about a 2" circle using the same Black Hills ammo. If I use Portuguese surplus ($2.50 to $3.00/box of 20), the circle grows to about 2-1/2" or 2-3/4". But the truth of the matter is that I can't see that well anyway, and given enough 10-round groups, I think both ammo would be very close; i.e., much better than my old eyes with prescription glasses.

However, when I practice offhand (standing) with my M1A, I feel fortunate if I get 10 consecutive rounds in a 6" circle, slow-firing!

So, for just practicing, whether standing, kneeling or seating, and prone, wouldn't it make sense (at least at my skill level) to use the Portuguese ammo even if its potential is a bit less than the Black Hills? (You see, I am considering participating in matches - hopefully someday soon, before I can't even see the front sight!)

You guys who shoot in matches - - what ammo do you use to practice?

Thanks!

Alex

 

[dakotasin]

use the same ammo for practice that you'd use in matches. the only time i'd deviate from this is when i was solely practicing trigger/recoil control.

if your practice ammo is different than your match ammo, how can you expect to be at the top of your game when it counts?

of course, when you take up handloading, you'll be able to shoot match grade ammo for practice grade prices...

 

[Nando Aqui]

Here is my reasoning (and I may be wrong; which is why I am asking):

Let's say that after practicing for a while I am able to raise my score from 70 to 85, for example, using the Portuguese ammo.

Had I used the more expensive ammo, maybe my score would have been 73 to start and 90 after practicing - that is, a little higher (+3) to start, and a greater improvement (+5) after practicing.

So as far for learning is concerned; i.e., to hold the rifle properly, trigger control, etc., as long as the ammo is relatively consistent, which the Portuguese ammo is, wouldn't it help me equally well (specially at a savings of $60 dollars or so per practice session if I shoot 100 rounds) to use the cheaper ammo?

And if I learn to consistently score in the 80's (again, just as an example) with the surplus ammo, wouldn't I probably score equally well or perhaps two or three points higher with the Black Hills ammo?

I understand not using unrealiable ammo that doesn't even allow the shooter to tell whether he/she is improving. But the Portuguese is better than I am from the three unaided positions.

What would be the disadvantages?

Alex

 

[Art Eatman]

Hokay. With the iron sights, there is not much difference off the sandbags between the match ammo and the Portygee. So, for offhand practice, use the less expensive ammo. You're working more on eye/finger coordination than you are in something like load development or sighting in, etc. The repetition is what's important.

Back aroun 1976 I got mad at myself for my relatively poor ability to shoot offhand at a stationary target. I did fine on running deer...So, I gave myself a set of barbells for Christmass. While I did all the various exercises, the improvement in shoulder and arm strength improved my ability to hold more steadily in the offhand position. Something to consider.

Unfortunately, Arthur Itis set in...Now, I figure the day is pure profit when my shoulders don't hurt.

Art

 

[Nando Aqui]

Thanks Art - I agree.

Funny thing is I have been working out with weights since I was thirteen - 44 years ago - well before the craze of body building set in (back when Mr. America and Bob Hoffman's Strength & Health were the popular 'muscle' magazines). Later, in college, it was for actual weight lifting - - and I competed, but never won. Anyway, I have never stopped doing some weight training three times a week, and running or the like the off days.

Yet, when I started practicing shooting offhand standing, just a few weeks ago, that M1A and the M1 got real heavy, real fast. I have never even seen a match, so I plan to go see one in September at the Benchrest Rifle Club of St. Louis, which is about a 1-1/2 hour drive for me. Then, perhaps, I will participate in the next match they have, which will be in October.

Alex

 

[Steve Smith]

I partially agree with Art

For standing (offhand) I wholeheartedly agree. For all other positions, I can easily tell the difference between match and junk ammo and each shot is a learning experience, so match ammo is required. I'm not sure if Art was suggesting that you use surplus for the other positions, though.

Steve

 

[Dr.Rob]

You have just stated one of the best reasons for reloading there is.

My hunt load is ballisticly as close to a 168gr sierra match king as you can get and we spent a lot of time and effort developing the load.

I suppose if your rifles were just "blasters" it wouldn't matter that you were switching ammo brands all the time. But "serious" match shooters reload or shoot from known lots of ammunition. When you cahnge lots, you re-zero your weapon. I've seen guys trim and weigh each case to within tenths of grains and start over again for the most arcane of reasons.

Match grade ammo isn't cheap. Making a close duplicate is a lot cheaper than you think, and will get you better overall results than surplus ammo.

 

[Nando Aqui]

Steve,

For all other positions, I can easily tell the difference between match and junk ammo and each shot is a learning experience, so match ammo is required.

I wouldn't use just any surplus ammo that could be deemed junk ammo, as you said. I made that point clear. That having been said, I know that the Portuguese ammo is not match ammo.

But I believe the Portuguese .308 ammo to be very adequate, and I have had similar experience with Danish surplus 30-06 and my M1 Garand, by the way. Case in point, I was able to shoot the following target with my good-old HK91, with a scope, and with less than a crisp trigger, shooting from its bipod, and using the Portuguese surplus ammo.

Target: The shot low and left was the first shot, and I could have called it as it was my 'fault'. The shot high and right was about half way through the magazine. The remaining 18 shots went in the 1-1/2" group. Not bad for any ammo and an HK91!

(I had posted this several days ago: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32749)
Alex

 

[Steve Smith]

I saw your target before. The ammo obviously shoots well in your gun. However, I believe (opinion!) that the possibility for errant shots is much higher with surplus ammo than it is with hand crafted match ammo. If the shot goes wild, who do you blame, th eammo maker or yourself? Do you know why the shot was off call? I try to use the range as a classroom so I make sure my learning materials are as good as they can be.

 

[Art Eatman]

Steve, I wuz being specific to the offhand position with the iron sights. Were the Portuguese ammo worse than 2.5" compared to Match at 2.0", I'd say stick with the Match.

My thinking is that if he gets 6" groups with Match ammo, offhand at 100 yards, and can get down to 4" with the cheap ammo, his eye/finger coordination is improving.

Gee. Doesn't everybody reload?

Art

 

[Steve Smith]

Gee. Doesn't everybody reload?

No kidding Art! The way I look at it, unless you're wealthy, you can't compete in a rifle sport (especially Highpower or Benchrest) without reloading. No way. You can play, but you will not compete.

Standing is a hard way to shoot. Its definitely the Achilles heel of my game. Its going to be my primary focus this fall and winter. Any man who only drops 7 points in 20 shots Sitting, 20 shots Rapid prone, and 20 shots slow prone COMBINED and still barely squeaks by at the bottom of Master class (94-97%) needs to work on his Standing. Rediculous.

Off the bench your practice ammo should be able to shoot into just over an inch at 200 yards all day, with no exceptions. 1.5" would be max. That Rem 700 oughtta do that handily.


BTW, I find it interesting that you are the second guy I know who's 700 loved the Port. The other guy can shoot dime sized 5 shot groups at 100 with it.

 

[Art Eatman]

The way reloading pays off in saved-money is that it keeps you out of the beer joints at night.

I do a lot of reloading during NFL games. I've sorta trained myself to do a certain repetition between each play, looking up just as the center snaps the ball. End of play, got 20 or 30 seconds for more sizing or priming or whatever. Get a lot done during timeouts and at half-time, as well. (After all, there are only eight minutes of actual "action" during those three hours.)

Art