Practice load similar to 9mm GDHP +P

[loplop]

Hello all. One of my CCW weapons is a Kahr PM9; I carry the Speer Gold Dot +P load in it. Since ammo costs (especially premium defensive ammo) have gone out of sight, I would like to find a load that feels similar to my carry load for defensive practice and familiarization.

Powders on my shelf: Unique, AA#5, Bullseye, and 2400. This weekend I worked up loads with Unique and AA#5, topping them with my bulk 9mm bullet (Hornady FMJ-ENC FP) at a OAL of 1.050" (per Hornady manual).

I worked up to the max Unique load as published by Hornady (I started at 4.5gr, I forgot my notebook today so I will fill the rest of this load in later).

I loaded 50 more working up to the max load as published by AA: started with 5.9, went up through 6.4gr of AA#5. Note that AA specified this with an OAL of 1.095" for FMJ, I used Hornady's OAL of 1.050" since I have the FP. AA specifies this 6.4gr load as 1200fps, which is close to the Speer-published 1250fps (IIRC) if the test barrels are similar.

Yesterday I got some range time and worked through a bunch of loads. I started with the AA#5 load, eventually moving all the way to the max 6.4gr load. No signs of weirdness or overpressure that I could see, and it shot pretty well. Recoil was still WAY below the factory GDHP load, though!

Due to a lack of time, I wasn't able to get all the way through the Unique loads. I don't know how the max Unique load will behave, but I don't think from where I stopped that recoil will equal the factory load, either.

My question: has anyone worked up a load similar in feel to the factory GDHP 9mm +P load? I'd like something with similar snappy recoil, so I can get used to the much greater muzzle flip in my PM9... Without shooting $1 a round ammo. I've already put ~150 of the factory loads through the PM9 to test for function, I think that's enough $$$ spent there I would also like to use a FMJ or something like the Hornady FP to save some $$$ over hollow-point bullets (this is just for punching paper).

FWIW, I don't have the Speer manual, so I don't know what loads they publish for their 124gr bullets.

In any case, I searched and found some discussion of folks wanting to find a handload that matches this factory load, but couldn't find any discussion that pointed to a solution. TIA.

 

[Steve C]

Recoil is as much about perception as its about physics. You may already be duplicating or exceeding the ballistics of the +P GS but your perception of the recoil and muzzle flip may be different due to muzzle blast or just memory. Unless you shoot both the factory and the hand loads over a chrono from your handgun the ballistics are just a guess. The "feel" will require you to shoot both loads side by side and not rely on perceptions gathered on a previous day.

IMO trying to duplicate the "feel" is a wast of time and effort. As long as your practice ammo hits the target at the same location as your "defense" ammo, recoil that happens after the trigger is squeezed is mostly irrelevant. Recoil recovery from a +P 9mm load vrs even a standard pressure load isn't significantly different. If you ever need to fire your gun in self defense its likely you won't even notice the recoil. Most of us practice with ear plugs or other hearing protection. In a self defense situation you won't have that luxury but when you're preoccupied with staying alive you probably won't even remember the sound of the gun shot. Most people can't remember accurately how many times they even fired.

 

[loplop]

Steve, those are very good points to consider, for sure.

I absolutely meant recoil "feel" and not ballistics. I don't really care if I'm pushing 1000fps or 1300 fps as long as 1) it hits the same spot as factory ammo and 2) "feels" the same. Whether or not the "feel" is important, I leave that up to the reader. Your points are very good, and certainly valid.

Personally, though, I would like to get "close" in terms of feel. I think it adds to my training, and with a small gun like the Kahr PM9 (which does change significantly in terms of recoil recovery for load), I believe it important.

The only thing I can point to for this is my training with a snubnose revolver. I found the snubby extremely difficult to shoot well, when I first bought one. I shot many thousands of rounds through my snubbie, and in the end, quite a lot of Speer GDHPSB +P. I was able to secure a case of that ammo for a very good price (years ago, before ammo costs went through the roof), and found that practicing with standard-pressure loads did NOT translate that well (in terms of accuracy) for me. When I practiced with hundreds of +P rounds, my accuracy increased. And remained so, with much less frequent +P practice. So for me, I feel this is worthwhile.

On the other hand, perhaps in the end it will not matter. Accuracy will likely change in the event of a grave encounter, and perhaps I worry too much about "replication" and training. But I guess it can't HURT, per se, no?

Anyway, I'd rather this not turn into a discussion of "whether to duplicate or not." I'd be happy to start a new thread for that as it is an interesting topic. I'd really like to know if any other handloaders here have attempted similar duplication of this load.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have loaded 124gr GD +P duplicates using the same bullets and VV-3N37 powder. I posted data in a thread several years ago. I agree that there's not much reason to do this for practice. Also, cross-check your OAL with other loads and other manuals. I usually load 115-124gr bullets in 9mm to 1.125 - 1.150" depending in the bullet and gun.

-z

 

[evan price]

I load a Rainier plated 124-gr hollowpoint bullet on 4.7 grains of Titegroup in nickle-plated brass. It gives me loads that perform like a +P GDHP. When randomly inserted in a magazine with real 124 +P GDHPs you can't tell the difference.
I carry Speer Gold Dots in my carry guns and don't like paying fifty cents each for practice ammo.

=>Please note this is above published maximums for this powder, etc etc. all cautions apply<=

 

[loplop]

Thanks, Zak and Evan. I don't have any Titegroup or VV, but I'm sure I can find some locally. I'll start looking.

Evan, if you have a moment to measure the Ranier HP I'd be appreciative. I'd like to see how the length differs from the HDY FP I use. I also have some HDY XTP lying around.

Zak, here's the thread you probably mean (from 2003):
9mm VV data

In searching for that one, I found a link to another of your posts on a different board:
Another 2003 post

In that post, you mentioned you were developing a round similar to the +P round for practice. Since you mentioned you don't think this necessary anymore, what did you end up settling on for practice? A reduced version of this load, or something else entirely?

As I mentioned, I'm not really looking to push the envelope of 9mm. I'll leave that up to others more qualified than myself I'm just looking for a similar-feeling practice round. It could be that "similar" is close enough, I don't really need exact duplication.

Right now, my standard "practice" round is 124gr Hornady FMJ-ENC FP set at 1.050" over 4.5 grains of Unique. Pretty mild.

 

[Zak Smith]

Hi,

I never worked it up with a bullet other than the GDHP, and using that one for practice is not feasible due to cost. I ended up using a practice load of a 124gr plated RN with 4.2gr of Titegroup (slower and not a max load), or just shooting factory 9mm: 9x19 NATO (Winchester) or "any" 9mm.

I don't think there is substantial value in shooting "+P" 9mm for practice, and even for defense it's not essential.

I did check the OAL I was using (I found some of the old loaded rounds)-- the GDHP rounds were loaded to 1.472", which is way longer than some of your loads. This does affect pressure-- longer is lower pressure.

In summary, in my opinion, practice with regular power 9mm is just fine. It also allows more margin for loading error, which when using mixed brass and loading on a progressive machine, is something to be considered.

Hope this helps,
Zak

 

[loplop]

Zak, yeah, the GDHP's sure aren't cheap. I had a chuckle at costs mentioned in some of those threads... Ahh, the good old days!

Do you perhaps mean 1.072? or 1.172? 1.472 would be awfully long for a 9mm

I agree with the prudence of going for easier loads than max. I don't load on a progressive, and I can weigh the charges individually quite easy with my Chargemaster. I also sort brass by headstamp if I'm going for max loads--but this is no guarantee. Your caution is well received. Something I will think about.

I hope that maybe I can find a load that "feels" more similar to the +P GDHP load without needing to skirt the top end so to speak. It may not be possible, I guess. I'll keep loading. FWIW, I did buy some HDY FMJ-RN which I will try loading to the 1.095 OAL per the AA loading info. I'll dial back and work up again.

I am also going to buy some VV powder. I think there's one store that sells it locally.

 

[Zak Smith]

I'm sorry, 1.142".

I don't see any reason to load shorter than about 1.130" unless the bullets aren't long enough, or the ogive hits the lands in the barrel (was the case for the 90gr bullets). Longer will be a "safer" load, provided it works in the gun (and again, doesn't hit the lands).

-z