Pre-64 lever question

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CLP

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Can someone explain to me why many people desire "pre-64" Winchester lever action rifles to more modern ones (location of manufacture and quality control issues aside). I want a lever action rifle. Doesn't have to be .30-30 as long as I can find an ample supply of brass and load data. However, I've been hesitant about a marlin 336 given the overwhelming number of complaints I've read about QC issues, and I don't want a modern Winchester because I want and American made rifle (I understand that the Japanese made rifles are very good fit and finish). Thanks.
 
The model 94's got changed in 64 also. The major changes were the receiver being investment cast from sintered iron rather than forged steel, and a sheet metal lifter and loading gate. The sheet metal parts were only used a short time, and the receivers went back to being forged in the late 70's. The post 64's are just as reliable and accurate, but don't have the same quality as the earlier guns. You can usually spot them right away from the bluing flaking off the receiver.
 
While recent (since being taken over by Cerbeus group) Marlins have been known to have issues, the older Marlins are top quality guns that thousands of people are entirely satisfied with. I have one from the 60's that has never given me any problems, and actually, and surprisingly (especially for a lever gun) has the BEST factory trigger I've had the pleasure of squeezing. I have never before nor since found a trigger this crisp and light on ANY factory rifle, regardless of action type.
 
I've never known there to be a huge demand for any pre 64 Winchesters other than the M70. And that was only because of the control round feed, which has been reintroduced.

M52, M12, M71, M92 among others. All in demand today.
The M70 was CRF, of course, But so where the thousands of cheap Mauser 98's in the market then.
IMO 64 was not as big a deal as the way Winchester went down hill post war vs pre war. The pre war guns where a work of the machinists art, the post war guns, Well they where a product of the mass production techniques learned in WW2.

Anyway to the OP I would not be concerned about any pre 64 issues as far as the guns that you are buying to-day. Look at the posts on THR. 1/8 inch groups? From a factory gun? Just that alone tells me that the quality of the guns[function wise] is better today then we ever had.
 
As it was said, post 64 Winchester 94s are mostly aesthetic differences. The late '60s - '70s made guns work great, but they're usually worn down to silver on the receiver. The price usually matches that fact, they are generally available under $300 in these parts.
I had one, and would have kept, but I prefer Marlin and I found a straight stock 336.
 
I bought a Win 94 Saddle Ring carbine a few years back for $175. The "case hardening" on the receiver doesn't put up with being a truck gun, it's substantially worn and rust pitted. Research on the serial number put it about Oct 64, a "post" gun.

What happened was the Winchester was losing money, and needed to modernize it's production. The biggest component was labor - the parts were being made out of reasonable production tolerances and couldn't be simply put together with a guarantee the guns would work. They had to be hand fitted to get them operating. It was a profit eating expense and the company was clearly headed for closure in the near future.

This is where the fanboys wax poetic about the high levels of craftsmanship that were equal to European masters, as if they were bespoke guns fitting for the privileged but priced for the common man. The reality is that a production run of parts included what we would now call a high number of rejects - but labor was ostensibly cheaper in the minds of production managers and they just tried to use them anyway instead of scrapping them.

What resulted was that some high cost parts were simplified, things were tightened up on the line, and the parts were made to a higher standard with less rejects. That meant less hand labor and more guns being finished sooner for less cost. But, this was anathema to the cultists who were enjoying their Win 70's as a icon they could put up against the high end makers. The reality is that the post 64 guns kept Winchester alive and don't need as much expensive gunsmithing to replace a critical part. In other words, they worked to make Eli Whitney's vision of assembling a gun from a pile of parts and work right the first time a reality. It wasn't happening before.

It's what most AR15 builders enjoy - you assemble a pile of parts from the four corners of the US and it works. The fanboys were aghast and made all sorts of noises about it, which should actually make them suspect by insisting on something that makes repair of the guns more difficult and expensive.

The post 64 guns work, and work well, chose one for what it is. In lever actions there are specific periods where certain features were introduced, for better or worse according to who owns what. Side eject allows scoping it better, but it can be done with top eject. A cross bolt safety may or may not suit - the safety under the lever requires you to squeeze it enough and it's something you need to shoot to get used to it. An exposed hammer is known to be subject to impact and a negligent discharge if falls to the ground, but there are those who like to stalk their game hammer down and thumb it when they sight something. Preferences abound.

I like my Saddle Ring, it has a metal butt plate and you need a winter coat to soften the impact. It hasn't ever jammed on me, I've shot others that would regardless of the ammo. It does limit you to round nose, but only if you load more than one extra in the tube. Two shots should be enough for a deer, or get the soft polymer nose rounds and fill er up. Sling? Scope? Fringed doeskin jacket? Up to you.
 
IMO 64 was not as big a deal as the way Winchester went down hill post war vs pre war. The pre war guns where a work of the machinists art, the post war guns, Well they where a product of the mass production techniques learned in WW2.

Does this apply to product lines created after the war? Or do you think when they retooled for commercial sales after the war they modified the process and tooling of established product?
 
In 1964 Winchester dramatically changed the model 70. There was an immediate spike in interest in those rifles. They also started cost cutting measures on everything including the model 94's. The model 70 was a complete design change and it should have been renamed something else. It was so different, it really was no longer a model 70.

The original design of the model 70 was brought back in 1992-present. Today a standard, common pre-64 model 70's will no longer command the premium they once did.

The changes to the 94 were much more subtle, and gradual. It is safe to say that any model 94 made prior to 1964 is generally better quality than later guns. But since the same design is used they never did command nearly the premium the pre-64 model 70's did.

One big difference is that Winchester corrected the design and quality problems of the 70. They never did correct the issues with the 94 which gradually declined in quality from 1964-2006. Today If I wanted a quality model 70, I'd much rather have a 1992-present made rifle than a pre-64. With the 94, I'd much rather have the pre-64 than anything newer.

Winchester quality after WW-2 did decline. The machining processes to make their rifles was labor intensive and expensive. The Remington 700 could be manufactured for a fraction of the cost. Winchester found they either needed to cut quality dramatically, or raise prices if they were going to stay in business. Quality did decline, but the design of all their guns was solid.

The changes made in 1964 really saved the company. The changes to the model 70 meant they could be produced cheaper to compete with the 700 price wise. Lots of folks didn't like the new design. By the 1990's CNC machines made it possible to return to the original design, and still compete at about the same price.
 
First of all, with Model 94s, it's "Pre-63." The Model 94 was selected as the test platform for reducing manufacturing cost, and the changes were made in 1963, not 1964.

Secondly, the early Model 94 are a bit better fit with slicker loading and actions.
 
Does this apply to product lines created after the war? Or do you think when they retooled for commercial sales after the war they modified the process and tooling of established product
Huntsman-
I was specifically thinking of the M70, a pre war carry over. Place the pre war unit next to a post war gun and it is immediately obvious many machining steps where eliminated. The step at the root of the bolt handle is gone, the matted recess on the bridge is gone, the stripper clip guide is gone. The tang was changed from the clover leaf to a easier to manufacture oval shape. the finish on the receiver went from a deep blue to a matte finish.

Even the stock suffered, the checkering getting courser.

I don't know if the other carry overs such as the M94 and M12 went though such large changes as I am not familiar with them but would guess some machining steps were eliminated.
In the post war introductions we can't say precisely what was done to speed up production because we have no pre war examples to look at and compare, but I think it's safe to they were designed and manufactured in the first place to eliminate as many unnecessary production steps as possible in them also.
 
There is a large difference in pre- and post-64 Winchester 94s. The receivers are made of different metal, parts that were machined became cast, there was an overall cheapening of the product.

Pre-64 Winchesters were becoming too expensive to make and still sell at a competitive price. When this happens, a manufacturer has to figure out how to make the product for less money. In 64 Winchester performed a textbook example of how NOT to accomplish this; they made the product cheaper, not less expensive to make.
 
I've found that pre 63 Model 94 Winchesters are made a little better and things such as spring strength and slickness of the action much better!

Fit and finish were much better in my opinion as well! Wish I had not sold mine now but everything has a price! LOL!

OBTW I've owned several including a NIB M94 (1976) which I sold to Greg Rodregez who said he would do a write up on it in STM but I don't think he ever got around to it before his untimely death! RIP!
 
There is a large difference in pre- and post-64 Winchester 94s. The receivers are made of different metal, parts that were machined became cast, there was an overall cheapening of the product.



Pre-64 Winchesters were becoming too expensive to make and still sell at a competitive price. When this happens, a manufacturer has to figure out how to make the product for less money. In 64 Winchester performed a textbook example of how NOT to accomplish this; they made the product cheaper, not less expensive to make.




^^^^^ This is true as well! ^^^^^
 
One thing about the post-63 Model 94 is you cannot reblue the receiver. I don't know exactly what it's made of, but bluing with ordinary salts or cold blue doesn't work.
 
Originally posted by jim in Anchorage

Quote:
"I've never known there to be a huge demand for any pre 64 Winchesters other than the M70. And that was only because of the control round feed, which has been reintroduced."

M52, M12, M71, M92 among others. All in demand today.

The 92 and 71 aren't really part of the "pre" or "post 64" question as both had been discontinued before 64. I've never heard of either referred to as "pre-64". Both have been recently re-introduced in models from Miroku, but never been a part of the 64 discussion.

Originally posted by Vern Humphrey

One thing about the post-63 Model 94 is you cannot reblue the receiver. I don't know exactly what it's made of, but bluing with ordinary salts or cold blue doesn't work.

They blue, but tend to turn purple when normal salts or temps are used. I've heard various methods used to blue them, from special salts to raising the temp for part of the blueing process. I have an '03 sporter that the receiver turned purplish, the same things come up in discussions about them and other guns that go purple. Temp and salts can affect the outcome.

I've had a number of both pre-64 and post-64 94's. The pre guns are definitely better fit and finished, and the parts changes were very definitely to "cheap" parts. Stamped internal parts, roll pins instead of solid, impressed checkering on the butt plate instead of raised checkering,...and on it goes. The post 64 guns all worked ok though, and some were very accurate. Many try to put pre-64's on a pedestal, but the truth is the guns had been slipping all through time. Pre-war guns are better than post war "pre-64's", and early 1900's guns better than late pre-war guns.

I've seen some later angle eject guns that were very well finished, the XTR guns seem better than average for finish. I wouldn't mind owning one at all, so long as it wasn't a cross bolt safety or tang safety, though the tang safeties are not that hard to get right. Rebound hammer setups go away easily with a lower tang parts swap. Being a Winchester fan in general, I'd prefer an angle eject over a Marlin to scope a lever gun.
 
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