Pre/Post ban question re: AK

[Destructo6]

Here's the situation...

A MAK-90 in the same owner's possession since 1992. Obviously, this is post-1989 import ban. In late-1992, the stock was replaced with a US-made thumbhole stock set from Advanced Concepts (IIRC). Also, a US-made AK-74 style brake was added by welding to front sight assembly. It was in that configuration, without a magazine, when the 1994 ban went into effect and that is 100% certain.

Alright, stick with me...

To be American, a "semi-auto assault weapon" can have no more than 10 imported parts. Here's the ones I see applicable.

• 1) hammer
  2) trigger
  3) sear
  4) bolt carrier
  5) bolt
  6) gas piston
  7) receiver
  8) trunion
  9) barrel

Does this constitute an American rifle and, therefore, pre-ban or is this just wishful thinking (probably)? It's been scrutinizing with my brain to quote Mike Tyson.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Not quite. The parts count only applies to making a gun that is not legal for importation as a sporting weapon. The sporting requirement isn't needed for guns made in the US. By combining certain US made and foreign made parts, you can get around the import ban.

Section 922(r) of the Gun Control Act (GCA) prohibits assembly of certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns from imported parts. The implementing regulations in section 178.39 of Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations provide that no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the following imported parts if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of the GCA as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting
purposes:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings
or stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunnions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearms, handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter27.txt

Even though your gun was made prior to 1994's AW ban, it was no configured as a semi-automatic assault weapon at the time of the ban's start date. It cannot now be made into an AW, at least until September 13 of next year.

 

[MAKOwner]

{edit} Whoops, insta-posted

You can't have a "pre-ban" MAK90 no matter what you do. You can have a postban gun like it is right now, or you can have a postban US made gun that can have the "pre-ban style" pistol grip stock setup. The rifle is legal like it is though. You don't need to worry about the parts count unless you want to put a pistol grip style stock on it. At which point you need to add 5 total US parts. If you have a muzzle break you need 6 US parts, so your US break in effect does nothing for you... The front handguards count as one part together BTW. That's how I understand it. There is a comprehensive post at ak-47.net on this with alot of discussion, http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49224

 

[Destructo6]

it was not configured as a semi-automatic assault weapon at the time of the ban's start date.

That's the thing. Must it have a separate pistol grip or does a thumbhole suffice to qualifiy as "configured"? Today, thumbhole is considered no different than a P-grip. It also had no more than 10 imported parts, those listed, attached to it, which in today's world would make it "Americanized."

 

[Shaggy]

Your US Thumbhole stock in essence counts as 1 US part. It really means nothing in the scheme of things on this rifle. Now if you put is on an SAR1, you have essentially decreased the number of parts in the rifle in legal terms.

You can keep your MAK90 like it is with the thumbhole stock. It is a post ban weapon. It was not configured with a pistol grip, bayonet lug, flash hider/break. It was imported before the AWB1994 but after the 1989 foriegn AW ban.

Currently, other than parts you put on the gun like the US break and US thumbhole the entire gun is made of chinese parts.

If you want to put a traditional AK pistol grip on the rifle then you need to add 5 us parts to the rifle(assuming stamped receiver here, not milled) The most common parts used for this purpose are:

US MADE:

pistol grip
gas piston
hammer
trigger
sear

In your case, since you need to go from thumbhole to PG configuration the easiest thing to do would be to buy a US made stock set from Kvar

Pistol Grip
Handguard
Buttstock

Then a US FCG
Hammer
sear
trigger

Or keep your Chinese FCG and buy some US Made

Followers
Floorplates

In the end, nobody cares or even knows. When was the last time anybody ask you to prove your rifle had the correct number of US parts in it? If it were me, I buy the US stock set and buy about a half dozen floorplates and followers. That way you are legal but if you stick in a foreign mag and blast off 30rds who the heck is going to care? Nobody!! It's all a bunch of crap anyways.

 

[Destructo6]

If you want to put a traditional AK pistol grip on the rifle then you need to add 5 us parts to the rifle(assuming stamped receiver here, not milled) The most common parts used for this purpose are:

I'm quite familiar with the need to eliminate imported parts. Adding US parts is not the objective. Only specific parts contribute to your imported parts count and that oh too familiar list was posted by Hkmp5sd. The Advanced Technologies stock set included handguards in addition to the thumbhole (worst design I've ever seen).

My point is it was configures as a "semi automatic assault weapon" at the date the ban went into effect, iff a US-made thumbhole would have been considered equivalant to a P-grip as it is now.

ie: P-grip + flash hider + semi rifle + <10 imported parts + capability to accept detachable mag = pre-ban assault rifle.

In which part of that equation am I all wet? It's been bugging me.

For what it's worth, the MAK-90 now wears Kvar furniture and fire control parts.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

This might help.

Certain firearms including the MAK 90 semiautomatic rifle were prohibited from importation, on April 6, 1998, and they cannot now be assembled from imported parts as provided in the cited sections. Such firearms which were imported or assembled prior to April 6, 1998, in compliance with the cited section may still lawfully be possessed.

Adding a pistol grip and buttstock to a MAK 90 rifle using more than 10 imported parts would still constitute assembly of a semiautomatic rifle subject to the provisions of 18 U.S.C.section 922(r) and 27 CFR section 178.39.

Adding a thumbhole stock to an AK style semiautomatic rifle using more than 10 imported parts would now also constitute assembly of a semiautomatic rifle subject to the cited sections.

A MAK 90 style rifle having a thumbhole style stock with a pistol grip, but none of the other features listed in the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30)(B), would not meet the definition of a semiautomatic assault weapon. The "grandfather" exemption in 18 U.S.C. section 922(v)(2) applies only to a semiautomatic assault weapon which was lawfully possessed on the date of enactment of the statute. A rifle which did not meet the definition of a semiautomatic on September 13, 1994, does not qualify for this exemption. A firearm which became a semiautomatic assault weapon after September 13, 1994, is subject to the prohibition in section 922(v).
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter32.txt

Since your MAK was imported and owned by youback in 1992, the 10 imported parts doesn't apply. Since a thumbhole stock counts as a pistol grip, if you added a flash suppressor (NOT muzzle brake) back in 1992, you have a pre-ban semi-automatic assault weapon. As such, you could even put an AK folding stock on it.

 

[MAKOwner]

Since a thumbhole stock counts as a pistol grip, if you added a flash suppressor (NOT muzzle brake) back in 1992, you have a pre-ban semi-automatic assault weapon. As such, you could even put an AK folding stock on it.

That's ignoring the 89 EO ban and the ensuing 922(r) with that. That MAK90 could never have legally had a threaded barrel/flash suppressor on it or a folding stock prior to 94 because other laws covered it during that period... Unless I'm mistaken... The only loophole I can see is enough US parts prior to 94 to be US made during that time period, thus not a foreign post-89-ban gun covered by the EO/922(r). The buttstock and muzzle break didn't accomplish that by my count, and that US made/imported parts count ruling wasn't on the books back then anyway was it? So what would the determination or it's foreign/domestic made status at that time?

I don't believe there is anyway to have a "pre-ban" MAK90, which is also the consesus over at ak-47.net from what I've read...

Since your MAK was imported and owned by youback in 1992, the 10 imported parts doesn't apply.

If you're changing the configuration on a previously imported MAK90 you still have to deal with the US parts count, as you would otherwise be assembling a banned weapon...

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Please note the dates. The MAK 90 was not one of the guns prohibited from import in 1989. It was allowed to be imported until April 6, 1998. Any MAK 90 in the US prior to that date is "grandfathered" and does not need the parts count in order to be assembled. This "part count" deals strictly with importation, not with the AW ban.

After that date, in order to assemble a MAK 90, it would have to meet the minimum parts count to be classified as made in the USA.

Any MAK 90 already in the US but not assembled in an AW configuration at the time the AW ban started, can not be made into an AW now. Since the MAK 90 in question had a flash suppressor installed prior to the AW ban on September 13, 1994, it has the two evil features that qualify it as a pre-ban exempt assault weapon. If a firearm is a pre-ban, it can have as many evil features as the owner desires.

That is of course, unless ATF has decided that a thumbhole stock on MAK 90 prior to 4/6/98 is a thumbhole stock, but one attached to it after that date is a pistol grip stock.

 

[MAKOwner]

Yeah, the MAK90 wasn't banned, it was the result of the 89 ban, not allowed to have the preban features. As long as you leave it alone it doesn't need US parts, but reconfiguring the stock setup is assembling a weapon that would have been un-importable, thus you need the US parts. You can't slap a p-grip stock on it without them the way things are currently interpreted...

As far as pre-ban status, I don't think that would work, because at the time the thumbhole wasn't a p-grip stock. If you stuck a p-grip on it it was in violation of 922(r). The grandfather clause has to do with "legally configured" rifles that would then be banned. Now the thumbhole and p-grip count as one in the same. Interesting double standard, perhaps there is some wiggle room for argument there. Not sure if that particular question has ever been asked of the ATF for an offical answer. Does a MAK90's thumbhole stock already count as a p-grip, if it does there shouldn't be any reason you couldn't put whatever p-grip setup on there you want then. However I'm almost positive we've beaten this to death on the ak board and come to the conclusion there was no way to have a "preban" MAK90. Guess this would be better asked over there.

I'll post a link over there to here, maybe get some more input.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

MAKOwner,

I see what you mean. The MAK 90 wasn't prohibited from importation until '98. However, between '89-'98, the gun in it's original configuration only was allowed to be imported while the remainder of the imports were cut off in 1989.

That means that Destructo6's MAK is currently configured in an illegal manner by having a flash suppressor added. It is in violation 922(r) (import ban). If he had changed the part count in '92 and added the evil features, the rifle would have been a preban AW. If he changes the part count now, with the configuration he described, he would then be manufacturing a post-ban assault weapon.

Thanks for explaining it so clearly. Sometimes it takes some banging to get it in my thick skull.

 

[Destructo6]

I've been having this same conversation (both side more or less) for a while and I have to stop because my brain begins to ache.

Hopefully, in about 18 months some of this will get easier rather than more difficult. We can hope.

 

[Kharn]

Destructo6:
Was the rifle imported with a threaded muzzle or a flash hider (either permanetly attached or just screwed on, but not a permanetly attached muzzle break)?

Kharn

 

[Destructo6]

The rifle was imported with no muzzle device of any kind and no threads, as is typical of MAK-90s. It still has no threads, rather the brake is welded to the front sight base.

The brake was added at some point prior to April 1994, as was the US stock set. I replaced the stock very early because the original broke about the third time I fired the gun. See, I took a Dremel to the thumbhole to make it comfortable, which made it fairly weak (but it was comfortable). However, the US-stock set and US-brake/hider were there prior to 1994.

How can I be sure? In mid-1994, I was stationed in Okinawa and wasn't able to touch it again until late-1995. I really didn't touch the gun again until mid-1997.