prefit barrels - the future

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taliv

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this has been a very contentious discussion over the holidays in some circles and i'm surprised it hasn't really been discussed much here. i wont get into the contentious part of it, but it occurred to me that it might not be a topic yet because people may not know about it.

a brief history:
i'm sure someone will tell me about some prefit i forgot about that existed back when Moses came off the mountain, but basically, the concept was sort of popularized by savage of buying barrels that are already chambered and having an unskilled user install them. later, "remage" and others worked on this savage barrel nut style to give effectively the same capability. however these aren't truly "prefit" according to me because the user has to set the headspace. accuracy international has always had this capability as well, but at $5000-9000 per rifle, they were never really popular.

but really, for the past several decades, if you want a benchrest quality, match winning rifle, you paid your $300+ for a blank from a barrel maker like bartlein, broughton, krieger, brux, etc. and then you paid $300-400 and sent your action to a gunsmith and waited 6 months for him to measure your individual action's threads and face to bolt dimension and cut and chamber the barrel, plus whatever frills you wanted like muzzle threading, fluting, cerakote, etc. for competitive shooters that would go through 2-3 bbl per year, we would usually order the next barrel as soon as we received one.

however, my friends at Impact changed the game a little by ensuring every action that leaves their shop has exactly the same dimensions, which enabled gunsmiths to start making and stocking barrels for those actions ahead of time. The shooter doesn't need to headspace anything. No gauges required. just an action wrench and barrel vice to spin the old one off and spin the new one on. in my case, i have two impacts, and a bunch of barrels and i can put any barrel on either action. so if i want to swap from say, 6dasher to 6.5cm, i just swap barrels. (i don't even remove the scope when i do it). it's pretty handy. I don't do it to change calibers much. I mostly do it to put on a new bbl when the old one is shot out. but I imagine many non-competition shooters would like to shoot 10 different cartridges and want it for the switch barrel feature.

Other action mfg have followed. For example, Defiance has two new actions that were discussed in another thread recently that both have dimensions consistent enough to maintain headspace from action to action (Rukus and Tenacity) where their previous actions (Deviant, Rebel, etc) did not.
Most of the popular higher end actions now support this, though notably others like surgeon don't.

so now that there's a market for it, the barrel makers are getting in on the chambering, and making "prefit" barrels in a variety of popular calibers. this is a big win for consumers (though many small gunsmiths may go out of business). my expectation is that large bbl makers will use their size and financial resources to start mass producing them.

i'm not endorsing them specifically, but an example is https://proofresearch.com/barrels/ which is famous for their carbon fiber barrels, but they also make regular stainless ones. from 22lr, 223, 6CM, 6dasher, 6.5x47L and 6.5CM, up to 338lm, off the shelf. MSRP $545. maybe a lot less from distributors. they also offer prefits for ruger, savage, cz and more, plus ARs.

they're going to sell a LOT of barrels this year. (watch the histograms for "what the pros use") and it wouldn't surprise me if next year, you can buy the same from the really big names and we start seeing prices come way down, perhaps even close to AR15 levels.

anyway, if you're thinking about buying a precision rifle this year, make sure it takes prefits.
 
The application of this technology is long over-due and has the potential to dominate the market.

We don't have to look to some obscure prefit system going back to when Moses came down the mountain, we only have to back go Eugene Stoner and his new AR.

Gunsmiths can adapt to the new system and make money putting together rifles for shooters so mechanically dis- inclined, they can't figure out how to assemble an AR or open a can of beans!
 
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lol yes, for ARs.

gunsmiths will likely be under a lot of pressure because the popularity of chassis like MPA and MDT mean all the glass bedding work we used to need with old wood and fiberglass stocks is reduced. and there's a lot less lathe work in the future. otoh, the overall popularity of precision rifle is going through the roof, so i sort of expect them to have plenty of work as new shooters get into bolt guns. i could be wrong though; just a guess.
 
Yes, there will be plenty of work for gunsmiths who make the paradigm shift. There will be enough money thrown at the hobby for gunsmiths who like to tinker to try their hand at refining the system. Or at creating a more flavorful, vitamin enriched snake oil.
 
It’s tolerance and tolerance stack. Give yourself a +/- .xxx dimension on the various parts then take the worst case as they add up and that’s what you are looking at.

I have seen things come to a screeching halt with .000x tolerances called for on a weldment or heat treat part when all they needed to do was post process machining. In any case, the precision is what costs the money.

That’s why the “run it down on a go gauge and lock the nut” style are so much cheaper. Despite working the same.

Good thing is that precision can still be found without a lot of painstaking work, like a digital watch for example. Tolerance making an integrated circuit to perform the necessary functions is on another lever of precision vs what one could expect out of the most precision rifle, test probes for them are much smaller than a human hair and must be viewed through a microscope and you can go to Walmart and buy one for under $10. Now we just need 300 million people to buy precision rifles a few times a year and they will be cheap too.
 
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I personally agree - I think the state of the industry is already “controlled headspace” or “drop in barrel” actions. Impact, Bighorn, Seekins, Defiance.... plus the influence of all of the barrel nut designs out there like Savage, Remage, Ruger, etc which offer drop-in barrels which are user “installable” without a machine lathe.

But here’s a string of random musings related to the topic...

Gunsmith populations have been shrinking for a long time already, but I think there are enough guys who won’t pay the increased MSRP for Remington, Ruger, Winchester, Howa, etc to start making “controlled bolt depth” actions, so a lot of gunsmiths will keep work rebarreling these.

I also think there will be a lot of guys who prefer the golden touch of their particular smith.

We’ll also see plenty of guys who still want their barrel throated for their particular load, or chambered in their particular wildcat, or otherwise less popular cartridge which isn’t offered by whichever brand barrel maker they choose.

There’s also the added cost of inventory barrel makers would have to carry to supply barrels for all of these different makes in different calibers, cartridges, - we see most of the existing profits already priced higher than the same barrel plus chamber and thread work by a highly skilled smith.

But, I will say - I was planning on another Defiance Deviant this year, but I’m swapping that plan for a Ruckus only for that drop in compatibility (maybe 2), and planning an Impact for my wife sooner than later, also for that reason. I’m hoping more folks pick up Seekins’ pattern also, so I can order these with just a phone call.
 
i've lost count of how many custom guns i've built. and how many barrels i've had custom chambered, but i think i have all i'll need for the foreseeable future. not sure what would cause me to upgrade
 
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Doesn’t really seem like a hugely difficult task. Right tolerances and properly indexing EVERYTHING should go a long way. Not using worn out disposable tools to make the next XXX parts is also a big deal that leads to consistency. The biggest question in my mind is how do they consistently change from tool to tool as things wear out.
 
i'm not endorsing them specifically, but an example is https://proofresearch.com/barrels/ which is famous for their carbon fiber barrels, but they also make regular stainless ones. from 22lr, 223, 6CM, 6dasher, 6.5x47L and 6.5CM, up to 338lm, off the shelf. MSRP $545. maybe a lot less from distributors. they also offer prefits for ruger, savage, cz and more, plus ARs.

they're going to sell a LOT of barrels this year. (watch the histograms for "what the pros use") and it wouldn't surprise me if next year, you can buy the same from the really big names and we start seeing prices come way down, perhaps even close to AR15 levels.

anyway, if you're thinking about buying a precision rifle this year, make sure it takes prefits.
Just looked at the Proof website. Yea, great price if they shoot tiny, and yea, they'll sell a lot of them if they shoot even pretty well. And yes, that would force the price down a little from the "big guys" in the game now. Even as new as I am to this game, after research I realized an action that could take pre-fits was desirable. Already bought my Impact action wrench.
 
Looks like MPA is getting into the pre-fit game, I am fairly sure they did not have them on the website 3 or 4 months ago. They had actions (Curtis Axiom), and barreled actions (MPA/Curtis Axiom or Curtis Axiom), but not Pre-Fits
 
@Walkalong - proof makes Impact prefits, they’re supposed to be up on their website and their pro site this month. They are also already making Defiance Ruckus prefits, but only the recessed bolt nose Ruckus works for prefits.
 
Altus Shooting Solutions (formerly Core, but not that Core) sells prefits for a number of actions as well, using various blanks, like Hawk Hill, Bartlein, etc.
 
taliv said:
accuracy international has always had this capability as well, but at $5000-9000 per rifle, they were never really popular.

I'm glad you mentioned AI since they were the first to do this as far as I know. It would be interesting to see some data on actual head space dimensions for x number of receivers and barrels. There's no way that they're all mimimum SAAMI.
 
Does the T/C Dimension system qualify in this regards?

It didn't seem to work out. Is it just that the rifles were too funky looking?
 
Does the T/C Dimension system qualify in this regards?

Kinda, but not really. Similar idea, but very different execution. The Dimension used barrels with an AR type design - the bolt head locked into an extension permanently affixed to the barrel, such the receiver didn’t contain the locking lugs. So yes, the barrels were interchangeable and “drop in,” and all of the bolt heads had to be identical, but all of the dimensional control was happening in the barrel assembly.

Prefit barrels like available for the Seekins Havak, Impact 737, Defiance Ruckus, AI, Bighorn Origin & TL3 use a shouldered barrel like any Ruger M77, Win 70, Rem 700. But the receiver lugs, bolt lugs, and bolt faces are dimensionally controlled in production to allow barrels to be threaded and chambered for headspace and fit any respective rifle.

Similar basic idea, different means of execution.
 
taliv said:
however, my friends at Impact changed the game a little by ensuring every action that leaves their shop has exactly the same dimensions

Varminterror said:
the barrels were interchangeable and “drop in,” and all of the bolt heads had to be identical

Not trying to be clever but words such as "exactly" and "identical" in the context of machined parts should be avoided. There has to be a tolerance stack based on receiver, bolt and barrel dimensions. There is no way that the tolerances are +/- .0000" for all the parts involved. +/- .0005" on all parts would be exceptional for a firearms manufacturer intent on making a profit. As I said earlier, it would be interesting to see the results of a capability lot. I like the prefit barrel approach, and ten years ago it was one of the features of Accuracy International rifles that made it an easy decision to buy three of them. Now I have four and would buy another over any other current custom or production rifle of a similar weight or application.

Roughly three years ago I bought an AI prefit Bartlein 6.5 Creedmoor barrel from MHSA and the headspace was +.006" over minimum SAAMI. MHSA had sent the barrels out to a vendor for chambering and they'd had more than few back with "excessive" head space. For the record, the barrel was a shooter from the outset but I sent it back to MHSA to have the shoulder set back a few thousandths and it was returned with the headspace meeting AI specs.

So for those of you that have bought prefit barrels that stop on a shoulder i.e. no barrel nut, what have you seen for headspace?
 
There is no way that the tolerances are +/- .0000" for all the parts involved. +/- .0005" on all parts would be exceptional
But doable, they have a little wiggle room to be safe as far as falling within SAMMI specs.

How tight are they controlling the actions? I have no clue. While a lot of people use go/no go gauges, a lot of people just throw ARs together with no checking.

I have faith in getting a prefit barrel from Impact for my Impact. If you get it from another source it should be checked when put together. Still, like I said, they have a little bit of wiggle room and CNC machines can hold very tight tolerances. Tighter just costs more. Imapct says each action is virtually identical (IIRC), so how tight is that? I don't know.

Either way, prefits are booming and we'll soon see how well they work out and who can manage to get it right.
 
Walkalong said:
Just looked at the Proof website. Yea, great price if they shoot tiny,

@Walkalong, I have a CF wrapped Proof barrel on a rifle, have another CF wrapped Proof barrel project in the works and have put a lot of rounds through two CF wrapped Proof barreled rifles. In my experience they do shoot very well as you'd expect with a single point cut (SPC) barrel. I've had three Krieger SPC barrels with MTU contours which were excellent, but I don't have any experience with Proof's standard stainless steel barrels but would expect similar performance. If you want to reduce the overall weight of a heavy barreled rifle by almost one pound, Proof CF wrapped barrels are certainly worth the cost of admission. I don't know if prefit CF wrapped barrels offer any benefits for PRS shooters or similar, but the standard stainless versions most certainly do.

Proof's biggest challenge will be keeping up with demand. They have a lot of contracts with OEMs and US Military and lead times are getting longer and longer. Additionally, they're located just a few miles from me and currently there isn't a skilled workforce in this area of sufficient depth that would allow them to add extra shifts as needed. Defiance is just a few miles from me too, not to mention Falkor, MRC, SMR, Cooper, McGowen, Excalibur, and more. This is such a rich area for firearms related manufacturing.
 
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