Pressure characteristics of black powder vs: smokeless powder

[ilcylic]

I have a question about firearm mechanics that, admittedly, is unlikely to have much practical bearing.

I am aware of the fact that it is extraordinarily dangerous to shoot smokeless powder rounds out of a pistol or rifle that was designed for black powder rounds.

My question is whether it is safe (and has even the possibility of being effective) to fire cartridges loaded with black powder out of a rifle designed to work with smokeless powder rounds. I know that black powder takes up a lot more volume than smokeless powder for a given level of ... gas production, for lack of a better term. So I don't know if any modern cartridges have enough extra space in the casing for a sufficient amount of black powder to work properly. But would loading, say, a .308 with black powder instead of smokeless, and firing it out of a bolt action rifle cause a ka-boom, presuming I didn't squib the round and get a ka-boom by firing a second bullet into plugged barrel?

Thanks in advance for considering my strange ruminations.

 

[armedandsafe]

It is highly unlikely that you will cause a KABOOM with BP in a smokeless weapon. The pressure curve of BP is much more gentle on modern metals than that of smokeless. I use BP in my 32-20s sometimes, even though the GUNS were designed for smokeless. Not a problem, except for the extra care in cleaning afterwards.

Make sure you clean the brass immediately, also. BP will weaken brass very quickly if you don't get after it right away.

Pops

 

[Tommygunn]

I'm not sure why you'd want to, unless you want the smoke.
Keep in mind when you load, you cannot leave extra space in the cartridge. The bullet should seat on the powder and even crunch it down a bit. If you don't like this, filler should be used, like grits, or whey.
120 years ago a cartridge was developed from the .45-70 called the .45-55; it was designed for the cavalry Trapdoor carbines. The solution then was to fill the empty space with cork or cardboard discs.
If you're doing this with .38SPL, that cartridge was originally a blackpowder cartridge.

 

[obxned]

Don't forget that water is the best solvent to effectively remove all of the BP crud, and if not 100% cleaned, you will get a very rusty barrel!

 

[Gifted]

I"ve sometimes wondered how BP would affect the operation of some semi arms. Obviously a gas gun like an AR would choke up quickly, but assuming the pressure was enough to get the right recoil, would something like a 1911 work? Perhaps you could make a grease gun in .45 long colt.

 

[ilcylic]

To be honest...

It's a musing I had about a severely extended SHTF scenario. Sort of a "what if everything fell down, and just didn't get back up again." 50 years from now, my notional grandkids might well still have one of my 1903s, and no smokeless loaded -06 to go with it. I have been lead to believe that the manufacture of black powder requires a lower level of technology than the manufacture of smokeless powder, so... Cast lead bullets and homebrew black powder and home made primers...

Not that I have any serious concerns about this happening, but once I had thought of it, I was still curious to know the answer.

 

[Gewehr98]

I did it several times...

And still do. I have a Ruger #1S in .45-70, and often times I'll borrow some of the same BP .45-70 loads I use in my Sharps Model 1874 Business Rifle, as well as my Remington Rolling Block Creedmoor.

The rounds are quite accurate in my Ruger #1S, and the recoil is a nice gentle shove, vs. the sharp jab of my ohmygawsh thumper smokeless loads for that rifle.

BP cleanup with a single-shot falling block rifle is ridiculously easy, BTW.

I've also run BP .44 Special loads in my stainless steel S&W 696, just to see how long it took for the gun to seize up with the charcoal burning ammo. I also wanted to see how well the .44 round balls w/Wonderwads I had loaded shot, and they did very well. I made it through nearly 100 rounds before the loading and extraction of ammo in the chambers became difficult. I took the cylinder and crane out of the gun to do the cleanup, but with the stainless gun, it was easy to see when you missed a spot of BP grunge. The fire and shower of sparks heading downrange was something to behold, but the indoor range owner was more than happy to see me finish the experiment so that the air would clear.

I've been tempted to load some BP in .45-ACP behind a 200gr cast SWC, just to see how my 1911s would handle them, sort of a SHTF scenario. I have a sneaking suspicion that I'd need a jacketed SWC fired every now and then to chase the bore clean of BP fouling.

The problem with the Springfield 1903/.30-06 scenario is that traditional BP rounds did better with larger bores. The smaller in bore diameter one goes, the sooner they end up choking on BP fouling. That was one of the nice things about the old .32 Winchester Special, it was much more amenable to BP loadings than the .30 WCF, aka .30-30 Winchester.

Something that few are aware of is that BP produced at the end of the 19th century was actually a better grade of propellant than the current stuff offered by Goex, Elephant, and Swiss here in 2007. It burned cleaner, and the remaining fouling was of a different consistency, staying moist and allowing subsequent shots to be fired without choking the firearm. It's reported that alder wood is the best source of BP charcoal, with willow running a close second. From what I understand, that's not what the current BP manufacturers (whom one can count all on one hand these days) use for their mixture. I've got an original Harper's Bazaar article from 1894 that goes into depth on duPont's BP factory, and the processes involved.

 

[ilcylic]

The problem with the Springfield 1903/.30-06 scenario is that traditional BP rounds did better with larger bores. The smaller in bore diameter one goes, the sooner they end up choking on BP fouling. That was one of the nice things about the old .32 Winchester Special, it was much more amenable to BP loadings than the .30 WCF, aka .30-30 Winchester.

Good to know.

I've got an original Harper's Bazaar article from 1894 that goes into depth on duPont's BP factory, and the processes involved.

Do you have a scanner, too? I'd love a copy of that article.

 

[unspellable]

BP quality

Yes BP has changed. It's almost impossible to get both barrels of a BP cartrdige double rifle to shoot to the same point with today's BP. As a result you have to use nitro for BP loads. There's a rumor that Swiss will sometimes work.

The charcoal used is one of, if not the most, significant differences from one brand to another. BP made with pure carbon isn't worth beans. The theory is that the imputities in the charcoal act as a catalyst.

 

[Jim K]

Will a M1911 pistol work with black powder? Yes. Is the gun hell to clean? Yes.

Black powder pressure actually peaks sooner than smokeless, even if the maximum pressure is no higher. That is one of the reasons old Damascus barrel shotguns blow with smokeless powder. The peak pressure may be no higher, but the pressure stays up past the point where the barrels thin down, which is just where the fingers usually are.

Jim

 

[Tom Bri]

Yep, you can use BP, even in m1911s. If you look around you can find a couple of threads on this topic in the BP forum.

My brother and I went through 50 rounds of .45 loaded with pyrodex. messy and dirty, but fed through fine. Clean up was not fun, there is a fine black cruddy powder blown into every crack. Basically, take the gun to the smallest bits you can and clean with boiling water and BP solvents.

Used a Springfield Loaded. The gun is normally very reliable, and there were no failures with 50 BP rounds. I want to load up a couple hundred and see how long it can run.

.38 special works too. It was originally a BP load, so there is plenty of space in the case. But velocity (unmeasured) seemed really low. The round-nose lead bullets managed to penetrate a piece of cardboard and about one inch of rotten punky wood.

 

[ilcylic]

Sounds like I might do best putting .44 Spl weight bullets in .44 Mag cases if I want to do this BP switchup. Plus, well, revolver.

Thanks for the info, guys. I knew I couldn't have been the only person to wonder this.

 

[8ring]

A few years ago a noted gunwriter and director of a shooting academy experimented with .45 Colt black powder loads in a Taurus snub-nosed revolver. He said that the flame and smoke were a sight to behold. He also claimed that shooting these rounds about 2 feet away from a standard cardboard target caused the target to catch fire.

 

[Gewehr98]

When I get a chance...

Do you have a scanner, too? I'd love a copy of that article.

I'll scan it and upload it to the BP thread as an image, and also put a link in there so it can be downloaded as an Adobe .pdf file.