Molon Labe
Member
Do you have evidence collusion is going on? If not, then an intellectually honest person can only assume collusion is not going on.Beethoven said:
Ball is in your court. Show me some evidence.
Price Gouging
- Thread starter NCP24
- Start date
- Status
Ball is in your court. Show me some evidence.
Waitone
Member
If there is collusion, and if the federales know about it, and if it is generally known collusion exists, then I submit we are looking at another example of the federal government ignoring laws it finds inconvenient. I also submit such an attitude is dangerous for two simple reasons:
--What happens when the Great Fed Up gets the idea that it, too, can simply ignore laws it finds inconvenient, inapplicable, or onerous. One quick example is I and others like me simply decide to stop paying income tax. The same logic that allows government to ignore collusion would permit me to stop paying taxes . Will my rebellion and those like me be excused based on the precedence of collusion in the oil industry? Not hardly.
--Second, if government can fail to enforce laws it wrote, how long before that same government begins to enforce laws not written. Example: President Schumer works as hard as he can to stop gun violence and fails so in exasperation he simply decides to begin systematic gun confiscation. How do you speak against such an outrage?
Yea, if there is collusion it is because government permits it. At that point a whole host of questions arise.
auschip
Member
R.H. Lee said:Why do you thing gouging requires hurricanes? The oil companies control supply and price with and without hurricanes. Gas prices (and profits) have been sharply increasing for the last 3 years. Hurricanes are just the latest convenient excuse.
Talk about faulty logic.........
Have Apple's prices doubled in the last two years? NO,
Does Apple control the computer supply? NO
Does the cost of computers increase the cost of everything else as do increased gas prices? NO
You're zero for three, but you can play again.
Yes - Some of Apple's prices have doubled, but not all of them, similar to say Conoco (some of their products have doubled in price, but not all).
Yes - Apple does control the computer supply.
Yes - The cost of computers can effect everything else, not to the same impact as the cost of oil, but 90% of manufacturing is done with computers, and if the manufacturing isn't done with computers the planning and day to day operations definately are.
And just so we can be clear, you are contending that oil companies have been price gouging for at least the last 3 years. Would you care to share how you came to that conclusion?
ReadyontheRight
Member
I was just in Houston. World series tickets were much more expensive than tickets for regular season games.
Was THAT price gouging?
How about the $400 hotel rooms and $50 parking lots near the stadium?
Was THAT price gouging?
How about the $400 hotel rooms and $50 parking lots near the stadium?
jefnvk
Member
And the point most of us are trying to make, is that the vast majority of collusion is somewhere outside of our control, say, at the OPEC fields.
jefnvk
Member
SO, because the Attorney General of a state has said something, makes it right?
I'd bet if the attorney general filed suits agains gun manufacturers for something, you'd be screaming about how they are full of it.
I'd bet if the attorney general filed suits agains gun manufacturers for something, you'd be screaming about how they are full of it.
Flyboy
Member
R.H. Lee, I'll make you a deal:
If you'll enroll in a basic economics course, I'll pay for it, just so that you learn that A) "gouging" is a term that's made-up by politicians to score political points with the illiterati, and B) that it's usually used to describe a market response to an economic stimulus that they want to modify--again, to scre political points--thus making it worse for everybody.
Just because Eliot Spitzer--paragon of virtue and champion of individual rights that he is--says "the EEEEEVIL oil companies cheated you" doesn't make it true. Matter of fact, given his track record of attempting to use the law and the courts to bend the laws of economics (among other things), I'd be inclined to automatically assume the opposite of anything he said.
Edited to add:
I have more faith in the people around here.
If you'll enroll in a basic economics course, I'll pay for it, just so that you learn that A) "gouging" is a term that's made-up by politicians to score political points with the illiterati, and B) that it's usually used to describe a market response to an economic stimulus that they want to modify--again, to scre political points--thus making it worse for everybody.
Just because Eliot Spitzer--paragon of virtue and champion of individual rights that he is--says "the EEEEEVIL oil companies cheated you" doesn't make it true. Matter of fact, given his track record of attempting to use the law and the courts to bend the laws of economics (among other things), I'd be inclined to automatically assume the opposite of anything he said.
Edited to add:
This is about as clear an example of Spitzer's misunderstanding--or complete disregard--of economics as is possible. Yes! Yes, you stupid git, prices change after a market disruption! That's just common sense! I'd ask how you got elected, but I know how: your constituents are socialist idiots.
I have more faith in the people around here.
Id almost forgot about this..not.
in todays paper,monday,the 19th of december,headlines here say heating oil will be raised 49% for january.average bill up from 212.66 last year to 315.90 this month. the oil company is blaming it on the hurricanes and cold weather. gee,wasnt winter cold last year and didnt it also snow last year but here we are after the hurricane excuses are done for car fuel and the prices at the pump did fall below 2 dollars a gallon,in fact,in the 1.78 range, for a few weeks after the hearings...soooooo back up it all goes.,maybe cause its xmas or a weekend or (insert reason here)I remember 1 year that the heating oil company sent us a letter telling us they were going to have to consider raising it because of warm weather all winter and the lack of sales,they raised it that year anyways.
I wouldnt give a crap cept heating oil and gasoline are not things I could do without,I have to work though I dont make alot nor do I do alot ...I suppose I could always start walking the 25 miles to work,bike ride or ask the owner of the gas delivery truck for a ride to work if hes headed that way.
"Yea, if there is collusion it is because government permits it. At that point a whole host of questions arise". I couldnt agree more,someones lying.
in todays paper,monday,the 19th of december,headlines here say heating oil will be raised 49% for january.average bill up from 212.66 last year to 315.90 this month. the oil company is blaming it on the hurricanes and cold weather. gee,wasnt winter cold last year and didnt it also snow last year but here we are after the hurricane excuses are done for car fuel and the prices at the pump did fall below 2 dollars a gallon,in fact,in the 1.78 range, for a few weeks after the hearings...soooooo back up it all goes.,maybe cause its xmas or a weekend or (insert reason here)I remember 1 year that the heating oil company sent us a letter telling us they were going to have to consider raising it because of warm weather all winter and the lack of sales,they raised it that year anyways.
I wouldnt give a crap cept heating oil and gasoline are not things I could do without,I have to work though I dont make alot nor do I do alot ...I suppose I could always start walking the 25 miles to work,bike ride or ask the owner of the gas delivery truck for a ride to work if hes headed that way.
"Yea, if there is collusion it is because government permits it. At that point a whole host of questions arise". I couldnt agree more,someones lying.
guess i'm at a loss here to understand why everyone is up in rhlee's craw.
gouging, i'll grant you, isn't a "technical" term with a precise definition, but it's pretty much clear to everybody else that it's synonymous with 'profiteering'.
it's not some political fantasy. it's real. it's easy to define. (grab a dictionary if you doubt me.) and what's more, it's illegal.
if you want to make a case that spitzer has a secret agenda against big oil, then let's hear it. but i'm not buying any "well, he's anti-gun so everything he says is wrong" crap.
i don't know why you're insulting people by bringing economics into this either. after you check up on the definitions, i'm sure you'll notice that the illegal bits (profiteering and gouging) are what CANNOT be explained by economics (supply/demand and increased costs). hence, economics is irrelevant and it's quite appropriate for him to disregard them.
so there's no call for your tone, although i'd certainly recommend rhlee take you up on your offer of a free education. it's quite generous, as tuition at CA state schools can be steep.
besides, unless he edited his post, rhlee didn't actually SAY anything. he just posted the links. if you post a link about a bg shooting a police officer, i don't think we'd all assume you supported shooting at the po po.
try to relax, guys
remember to breathe
gouging, i'll grant you, isn't a "technical" term with a precise definition, but it's pretty much clear to everybody else that it's synonymous with 'profiteering'.
it's not some political fantasy. it's real. it's easy to define. (grab a dictionary if you doubt me.) and what's more, it's illegal.
if you want to make a case that spitzer has a secret agenda against big oil, then let's hear it. but i'm not buying any "well, he's anti-gun so everything he says is wrong" crap.
i don't know why you're insulting people by bringing economics into this either. after you check up on the definitions, i'm sure you'll notice that the illegal bits (profiteering and gouging) are what CANNOT be explained by economics (supply/demand and increased costs). hence, economics is irrelevant and it's quite appropriate for him to disregard them.
so there's no call for your tone, although i'd certainly recommend rhlee take you up on your offer of a free education. it's quite generous, as tuition at CA state schools can be steep.
besides, unless he edited his post, rhlee didn't actually SAY anything. he just posted the links. if you post a link about a bg shooting a police officer, i don't think we'd all assume you supported shooting at the po po.
try to relax, guys
remember to breathe
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Post the link. Then post a precis. Then post a conclusion. Just posting a link isn't all that interesting, compared to somebody's conclusion(s) from the link's argument/information.
If I own anything that I want to sell, I can post any price that suits me, anytime. People don't have to buy. Competitors can price their goods as it suits them. Sooner or later, those willing to sell with get right with Jesus as to how much they want for the product.
Generally, when folks go to hollering things like "Gouging!", it's an indicator that their knowledge of basic economics is somewhat lacking. Or, they have no experience with buying and selling and not only making a profit now, but also staying in business in order to make a profit in the future.
Drifting over to heating oil: If the refiners get tied up in making gasoline instead of heating oil, there will be a low supply of heating oil. Last year's temperatures have nothing to do with the pricing. If some disaster--such as Katrina--obviate refining heating oil in the quantities needing for stocking in advance of demand, the price is gonna go up--per Econ. 101. That's only been going on since they first started refining gasoline and heating oil. But, given the short-term memory problems of most modern Americans, it's all new and unusual and must be the fault of some Evil Price Gouger.
Art
If I own anything that I want to sell, I can post any price that suits me, anytime. People don't have to buy. Competitors can price their goods as it suits them. Sooner or later, those willing to sell with get right with Jesus as to how much they want for the product.
Generally, when folks go to hollering things like "Gouging!", it's an indicator that their knowledge of basic economics is somewhat lacking. Or, they have no experience with buying and selling and not only making a profit now, but also staying in business in order to make a profit in the future.
Drifting over to heating oil: If the refiners get tied up in making gasoline instead of heating oil, there will be a low supply of heating oil. Last year's temperatures have nothing to do with the pricing. If some disaster--such as Katrina--obviate refining heating oil in the quantities needing for stocking in advance of demand, the price is gonna go up--per Econ. 101. That's only been going on since they first started refining gasoline and heating oil. But, given the short-term memory problems of most modern Americans, it's all new and unusual and must be the fault of some Evil Price Gouger.
Art
jnojr
Member
Beethoven said:
If that's true, then why isn't gas $5 a gallon, or $10? After all, who could do anything about it?
And, if current pricing is the result of collusion, any given gasoline supplier could make a freakin' mint by cutting his prices below the colluded price. That supplier would gain huge market share and be the Golden Boy in the eyes of the public. And what could his former collusion partners do?
jefnvk
Member
I didn't mean to imply that he is. I have no idea if he is or not. The point I was trying to get to, is that just because an AG says somethign, doesn't make it so.
So, I'll ask this very simple question. Why is it wrong for you to sell your property at whatever price you see fit?
Chris Rhines
Member
Mainly because he's wrong, and annoyingly insistant about it.
Not at all. Price gouging is nothing at all like profiteering, except in that they are both nonexistant concepts made up by economic know-nothings.
"Price gouging" is whinging about how unfair it is that the landlords-um, business owners can set prices higher than you want them to.
"Profiteering" is a more generalized mewling about how the capitalist roaders make money at the expense of the workers (whatever that is supposed to mean.)
- Chris
well, since his post consisted, in its entirity, of two links to other articles and no positive or negative commentary at all, please explain where he's "wrong" and "annoyingly insistant".
perhaps you've some lingering frustration from a past thread?
jefnvk, i agree. sorry i misunderstood and thought you were implying exactly taht.
i'll continue the rest of the discussion in the other thread
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
Go re-read this entire thread. We've gone round and round about economics, free markets, "evil capitalists", and "price gouging".taliv said:
The bottom line is that market forces cause fluctuating prices. This is a natural, normal, routine occurance. Yet R.H. Lee and some others insist, despite all reason, that is an intentional and immoral situation caused by greedy executives. It isn't.
- Status