Pricing the 2nd Amendment out of reach of minorities and the lower class

[TexasRifleman]

I invested time and money to get to this level--so should you.

That's not what this is about in the slightest.

This is about a government that keeps the prices for a specific type of product at an artificially high level to keep certain groups from being able to afford them.

What would you say if tomorrow the government said that milk would cost a minimum of $50 a gallon and no milk company could sell their milk for less and placed all kinds of restrictions on milk makers so that they only way they could meet these restrictions would mean that the price was over $50 a gallon?

Would you call that discrimination or would you simply say that those that can't afford $50 milk should just do without?

That is almost word for word what some of these so called "saturday night special" laws did. They took a legally made and sold product and forced the manufacturer to raise prices to a point where a target group could no longer afford them.

This is not a matter of someone needing to work harder.

 

[The Tourist]

This is about a government that keeps the prices for a specific type of product at an artificially high level

There will always be villians, there will always be those who use their power and prestige to manipulate prices and availability. Have you purchased gasoline this week?

My point is that your financial health should be protected as you would your physical health. Remeber the adage about death and taxes.

But consider this, I'm not really afraid of Hillbama. I don't have toilet fixtures made out of solid gold, but I could withstand quite a shake-up. Old news, actually. I lived through Jimmy Carter and even found a better job.

My point is that whining about freedoms being manipulated over pricing is old and very repititious. Ever hear of a "poll tax"? If you have a friend who is black, ask his grandfather. In a very real sense, it was mob 'protection money' at a government level.

Get a job. Go to the gym. Choose a good 100% blue agave beverage once in a while for a reward. There will be another cadre' of villians along soon enough.

 

[VARifleman]

My point is that whining about freedoms being manipulated over pricing is old and very repititious. Ever hear of a "poll tax"? If you have a friend who is black, ask his grandfather. In a very real sense, it was mob 'protection money' at a government level.

What I posted said that they are doing the same with guns as they did with poll taxes. They had those so that blacks couldn't afford to vote. They had literacy tests so blacks could pass and vote. These are the issues that I am talking about and comparing it to.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Ever hear of a "poll tax"? If you have a friend who is black, ask his grandfather. In a very real sense, it was mob 'protection money' at a government level.

Every time you post you make our point.

The poll taxes were the same as what we're talking about here, an artificial means to keep personal power out of the hands of a specific group.

You keep wanting to make it about economics and work ethic and it's just not.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Good thread, OP - thank you! Very true.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

"Now, I don't expect Jessie Jackson to understand the real reason for the second ammendment, but I don't get why he doesn't trust his followers whom he claims are fine upstanding citizens."

Because if they buy firearms, then they are demonstrating a potential self-reliance. If they are self-reliant, then what do they need him for? Just like all anti gunners, he realizes that his control over people is adversely affected by people who are willing to take responsibility for their own lives.

 

[The Tourist]

You keep wanting to make it about economics and work ethic and it's just not.

Go rent the movie "Barbarians at the Gate." It is always about econonmics and the work ethic. It always has been.

Look at your own history and The Framers. "No taxation without representation." The Boston Tea Party. All of The Sedition Acts.

All of these actions connected to freedom amid securing wealth and a carbon copy page out of every socilist's handbook. If you cannot kill your enemy, then tax away his freedoms.

How do you think Hillbama wants to control power? Simply ask us to surrender it, or set up so much government imbibing so much money that we cannot help but turn to the central government.

And they're not going to ask for charitable contributions. They're going to act like Boss Tweed at Tammany Hall, or The Stamp Act or some phoney baloney witch doctor selling indulgences.

The dust bin of history is loaded with "conquerors" who shackle an entire populace and never fire a shot. Learn to know the signs, and finding references is all too easy.

 

[Art Eatman]

The Tourist: Your interest is in a rather specialized and limited group, not the "Joe Sixpack" ordinary person with no real interest in firearms beyond some possible need in an unlikely event. A fair percentage of those are poor.

So just look at today's world of rising costs of food and transportation and think of those on a very-slim budget.

Your priority, my priority, might readily be for saving toward that better-quality go-bang. Many can't afford to do that.

Bad when governmental policies militate against those folks.

 

[The Tourist]

"Joe Sixpack" ordinary person

I understand. But if our friend Joe works in a 'company town' or in 'the rust belt,' he is certainly knowledeable about the outcome.

This fact I know personally. I tried to save a printing company once that laid off 75 employees three weeks before Christmas.

This is not a new idea--that being the connection of labor to rulers using their poverty. When I was five years old, a song came out, Tennessee Ernie Ford's Sixteen Tons, with lyrics germane to the core of this debate.

(Briefly, the song deals with coal miners trapped in their jobs because of the debts they ran up buying food from "the company store.")

You mean you never saw "Old Man Potter"?

 

[HonorsDaddy]

Tourist...

What an amazingly condescending attitude. Its nice to see elitism is still alive and well in the firearms community.

Thank you sir, for contributing to the problem.

This isn't about a desire to engage in a hobby my friend. It is about the basic desire to obtain a tool which allows you to exercise your rights effectively. For some people, the cost of even a Jennings or Raven Arms pistol is substantial. Apparently to you, this means they do not deserve to be able to defend their lives.

 

[The Tourist]

What an amazingly condescending attitude

That's not my point. I just have seen the train coming far too many times. We all know the old canard, "Those who refuse to study history..."

But I also saw another thing. As a small boy my Dad and I used to pass a company, and there always seemed to be one distinct car in the parking lot.

I made the comment, "Boy, that janitor has lousy hours." My Dad corrected me.

"Oh no, son, that's the owner's car. He's the first one there and the last one to leave."

In the midst of this debate, very few will deny the fact that this condition exists in America. We know the economy is fueled on money, we watch the company we work for and their direction--we even make comments on the charities our employers support if they are contrary to our values.

And after a lifetime of watching people go to work, of seeing election after election, of enduring plant closings and unemplyment, there are still people who complain about the rules of the game.

Just what exactly do you think Hillbama is going to do if elected?

Yikes, he/they/she are going to whittle away at enumerated rights by any means necessary. Taxes will be going up while our military is stripped to the bone. You can have all of the guns in your county, and they won't do you a whit of good if you cannot afford ammo, reloading supplies and gasoline to get to the range.

You know it, I know it.

I'm not an elitist for citing history. Heck, my Father wasn't even born during the Boss Tweed era. However the ideals and strategies of this type of rule are out there and they are age old.

 

[VARifleman]

Yikes, he/they/she are going to whittle away at enumerated rights by any means necessary. Taxes will be going up while our military is stripped to the bone. You can have all of the guns in your county, and they won't do you a whit of good if you cannot afford ammo, reloading supplies and gasoline to get to the range.

The taxes on guns and ammo is exactly what we're talking about. They don't want to go for a total ban because they face too much resistance, but they are trying to get away with it through taxation, price fixing, and license fees.

 

[dvcrsn]

The California mandated "safety testing" for firearms had the effect of increasing the price of handguns:banghead: because of two factors: first, gun stores and pawnshops could no longer add quality used handguns to their inventory if the guns weren't on the list (and since the makers would not submit guns that they were no longer making, there went the Ruger Security Six line, series 70 1911's, older models of Smith semiautos,etc those models became harder to find); and many companies just wrote off California (like Keltec and STI). What is bad is the POS guns that the law was supposedly addressing (Raven,Davis, Lorcin) usually passed the test. Correct me if I am wrong, but the last time I checked, a $200 Security or Service Six in 357 mag will protect its owner as well as any revolver out there, and compare reasonably well to a semiauto.

 

[The Tourist]

The taxes on guns and ammo is exactly what we're talking about. They don't want to go for a total ban because they face too much resistance, but they are trying to get away with it through taxation, price fixing, and license fees.

Unless the purpose of the thread was simply to complain, let me ask directly, what is it exactly that you want us to do?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Unless the purpose of the thread was simply to complain, let me ask directly, what is it exactly that you want us to do?

Did you read the first post?

This isn't Activism. VARifleman came to a conclusion through his own logic and he asked if anyone else had ever come to the same thoughts.

Certainly many of us have but he didn't know that when he posted, now he does.

He asked for thoughts on what he wrote and how he worded his ideas.

I think he did a pretty concise job of it.

 

[The Tourist]

Could you cut and paste the part you mean. I don't see a conrete replacement or substitute plan, other than "any tax is bad."

Flat tax? Sales tax? Government rebate?

 

[LAR-15]

I believe at least one state (NC?) had a law saying that a pistol's frame had to survive to XXX degrees, in order to prevent the sale of pot-metal pistols such as Ravens and Jennings. They had to change the law when the police wanted to upgrade to Glocks, which also melted below the specified temperature.

Kharn

It was South Carolina

 

[ctdonath]

That's not my point.

It's the point of several here.

Just because you've seen the train come far too many times doesn't mean it's not coming and we shouldn't be ready for it.

We're not really sure what your point is.
There has always been some form of "poll tax"? Yeah, and some here are noticing it for the first time.
People should just suck it up and take it? Practically, yeah, insofar as that's what they have to do to do what they have to do (I shelled out >$400 for NFA taxes etc. for my HD longarm - that's enough for a good used Glock alone) ... but that doesn't mean they should sit there, take it, and like it.

The point of the thread is to draw attention to the problem for those who haven't, or sorta, started noticing the problem. Your "suck it up" attitude is unhelpful.

 

[The Tourist]

We're not really sure what your point is.

It's very simple. I've seen threads like this before.

Obviously, firearms are expensive. They always have been. Elmer Keith wrote about the costs of firearms in his book called "Six Guns." Much of the book was compiled in the 1920's. (There even a picture of his wife holding a wild cat that she shot--while she was in a dress.)

After that, the next part of the argument proffers the idea that unscrupulous politicians control guns with taxes. The debaters complain that these taxes keep them from enjoying all of the nicer firearms. They bemoan their station in life.

Next, in the holy name of The Framers, they demand "their rights" and some type of plan to right this tragic wrong. Usually it's some type of give away program that is tantamount to "welfare for guns."

I asked a guy one time if I, personally, would qualify. He told me, no, I had enough money. I gushed, and told him, "Well, why didn't you say so! I know what that is! It's communism!"

From each according to his means, to each according to his needs.

Oh woe is me. Clearly, the prices of guns, ammunition and reloading supplies is up and going further. It might level, you might even get a coupon for being a good customer. But prices rise, and they almost never come down. (Gas will come down just in time for the election.)

The only way to beat this game is to vote and make sure you're on time for work.

Edit: Since this thread was started, there was enough time to sort through your closets, find stuff you no longer want, organize a garage sale and actually get the money for the gun you want. While you were waiting between customers, you could have written a letter to your congressman.

 

[Mall Ninja]

Don't know whether this has been mentioned but during the Clinton Admin, HUD tried to prohibit anyone living in public housing from owning a firearm. Of course, just as DC's gun ban does, this merely disarmed all the chickens in the henhouse, allowing the foxes to prey with impunity.

 

[The Tourist]

HUD tried to prohibit anyone

Thank you for the example.

But that's my point, in a left-handed sort of way. We can all cite examples of policies, taxes, and codes which we feel limit our enumerated rights under 2A. Obviously, I've made my opinion known.

However, I'll ask again, what's your plan?

Repeal all taxes at the state, county and federal level for all firearm, ammunition and reloading supplies as being a Constituional infringement?

Be my guest, and good luck. This would probably take a Supreme Court decision after years of working the case through the courts.

Only tax the rich? Well, okay, but then you have to wear a T-shirt that says, "My butt was parked on a couch when The Tourist paid for my guns."

Subsidize the purchase with a rebate or a coupon? Well, it's much the same as my welfare comment above, but we do offer incentives in the form of deductions on our IRS taxes. If you feel you have been impugned, list the deduction and let the tax boys make a decision.

However, someone has to cover your short fall. Either the better-off people pay your share, or the gun manufacturer pays, or some other program gets less revenue next year or The President sells his golf clubs. Trust me, the golf clubs are safe.

So if you're going to complain and ask for change, then you'd better have a plan. You're essentially asking the government to give up tens of millions of dollars in taxing commerce to be nice guys. And frankly, while I will support your right to the RKBA, I'm not going to buy you a gun.

So, what's your plan?

 

[Funderb]

yeah, I agree. guns and ammo is too expensive. even the magazine.

 

[Lew]

Tourist, are you just trolling or what? Seriously.

 

[VARifleman]

However, I'll ask again, what's your plan?

That's already been addressed by TexasRifleman. This is not the activism forum, and if I was posting a plan of action, I'd post it there. HOWEVER...the steps before doing that are important. You have to IDENTIFY the problem. That is what this thread is about. IDENTIFYING laws that are meant to tax and restrict guns from ownership of the lower classes, especially those originally designed to target minorities. You cannot go from 0-100 miles an hour without first going 1 mph, 2 mph...55mph (oh wait...I can't drive 55)...68 mph etc.

 

[The Tourist]

Tourist, are you just trolling or what? Seriously.

No, I'm just disappointed.

We seem to revere our heroes in history, but when it comes to our turn for care taking of the 2A, there's a real lack of anything substantive.

If we are in fact being taxed or manipulated by a strong central government, it doesn't appear that anyone even knows or proffers a solution, much less cares about implementing one.

And I get into trouble for asking a question.