Primers?? Sm & LG need facts...

[jeeptim]

Hey guys and gals how we doin?
So over the years have got a lot of info on primers.
I remember someone here had some info from CCI regarding the difference in pistol to rifle primers. From what I remember about this info was no difference other than packaging.
I believe their is a difference in cup hights this is what I believe . I have used small pistol in small rifle rounds some years back with no issue measured many and the size is the same in some mfg and very very small difference in others.
I have weight some the same.
Just so we are clear (I tend to ramble) LPP/LRP. SPP/SRP
Since then got hold of a crap ton of primers. Reason I'm interested in this I live in California next week this background for ammo starts cost will go way up amount you can buy is limited no innerweb sales well you can buy off the web have it shipped to an FFL pay a fee background check ect... I have 15k large rifle 2k large pistol should last a while even longer if I can switch LRP with LPP. If not I need to shopping cause it's only a matter of time till they ban powder and primers.
So anybody in the know would love to hear from you.

 

[Random 8]

I have heard, have not tried, not recommending, you can go down the pressure curve, not up. Legal disclaimer, do not try at home, in the interest of intellectual curiosity only. I.E, SR can be used in SP and LR can be used in LP but not the converse, except in low pressure rounds such as the .22 Hornet and most of the old BP cartridges. This with the caveat that pressures will likely increase, and loads should be adjusted accordingly. Have also heard, not tried, not recommend, that the primer cups are thinner on the primers intended for lower pressure loads, so using pistol primers in rifle loads can lead to blown primers in the higher pressure cartridges, and would almost certainly lead to poor ignition with slower burning powders in large cases.

Fact: pistol primers use a smaller priming charge than rifle primers.

Subjection: pistol primers have a thinner cup and can contain less pressure.

Wjhat you end up doing is entirely up to you.

I thank God every day I do not live in California and have to contemplate such measures.

 

[jeeptim]

Random8
Your opinion is near dead on my thoughts..
The info passed on from CCI as I remember was very convincing that sm and lg were/are same.
I only swapped the one time about 100 rnds.
I am so torn on the California deal.
Yes anything gun=Bad.
It's expensive.
Lots of left lovers...
The Good......
I live 200 steps from the ocean.
I have and do deal with the gun deal.
Started a small business doing well.
Have a LG group of friends on the right side. So it's a give and take

 

[murf]

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/reloading-primers/ large rifle primers are .008" taller than large pistol. I don't recommend priming pistol cases with rifle primers. too tall, imo.

luck,

murf

 

[Jesse Heywood]

Backing up what Murf said about height.

 

[jeeptim]

Nice info???
So going primer shopping!
Thanx

 

[labnoti]

I found that small rifle primers won't fire with some, maybe most, factory mainsprings in handguns. They're too hard. Same brand pistol primers will fire. Rifle primers must withstand much higher pressures and heavy firing pin or hammer springs don't have a lot of consequence compared to the same on handguns which can greatly increase a double-action trigger weight or the force needed to rack a slide.

I do believe you can use pistol primers in rifle cartridges provided you don't exceed the pressure that would be found in the pistol. If your rifle cartridge is 35,000 psi or less, a pistol primer that fits properly will be safe. You also have to consider the powder and whether the primer can ignite it well. So if you're shooting H110 in 300 Blackout, it would be easy to work up a load that uses magnum pistol primers. If you're using a very slow extruded rifle powder, a pistol primer probably won't work well even if you keep pressure down.

 

[murf]

not sure a pistol primer has enough umph to consistently ignite slow rifle powder. just a thought!

murf

 

[PWC]

I have used SR in SP and LR in LP and had no problem with ignition in any firearm. I don't have a chrono, nor do I shoot for 3/4" groups. Always goes bang and minute of paper plate meets my needs.

 

[Pete D.]

If you use LR primers in pistol cases, the primer will protrude enough - even when fully seated - that the cartridge may lock up/prevent from turning a cylinder in a closely machined revolver.
I have seen this happen

 

[Walkalong]

SR primers will fit in SP primer pockets and some guns will set some of them off reliably. Cups are harder and/or thicker and tend to be hotter to set off larger charges.

LR primers are taller than LP primers and will protrude from some LP primer pockets, which is bad. Cups are harder and/or thicker and tend to be hotter to set off larger charges.

SR primers can be, and are, used in some SP applications such as hot .38 Super.

SP primers can and sometimes are used in .22 Hornet.

SP magnum primers have been successfully substituted for standard SP primers during the great craziness.

I have read of instances where LR primers have fit and have been used in some (One?)large high pressure pistol round(s).


Buy the correct primers for the job, then later, if you really have to, everyone will be experimenting and talking about what can be used in what in a pinch.

 

[mstreddy]

I found that small rifle primers won't fire with some, maybe most, factory mainsprings in handguns

I haven't tried any substitutions in Large Primers due to the height issue mentioned above, though I've tried in Small. What I found, in my limited testing of SR in pistols is that, some brands of SR will work fine in some of my hand guns, but other brands did not, due to thicker cups. I have used the "infamous" Remington 6 1/2 SR primers in some of handgun cartridges after buying a couple K worth and learning that they are not suitable for 223. They all worked fine in my 38 Spcl revolvers, Colt 1903 32 ACP, and various 380 ACP pistols. I can't remember if I loaded them in 9 or 40.

I tried some CCI SR primers in 9 and they would not go off in various striker fired pistols, were mostly OK in hammer fired (Beretta 92, 1911) and worked just fine in PCCs.
I've shot some other brands of SR, but I don't have my notes handy. Maybe Tula, Wolf or something else. IIRC they worked fine in the pistols.

I have learned that, in a pinch, I can use SOME brands of SR primers in my pistols. The Rem 6 1/2 is a perfect example of primers from the same company NOT being equal. Rem makes the 7 1/2 SR for the higher pressure rifle cartridges, 223, etc. I found what to do with the otherwise useless, to me, Rem 6 1/2 primers and consider them pistol primers. Apparently they are only to be used in the lower pressure rifle loads for 22 Hornet. There is a warning printed on the side of the boxes.

If you search, I believe it was BDS that posted a great thread on primer thicknesses. There was an older thread about primer "power" or brisance as well. And, just found this web article that lists some thicknesses for primers.http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php

I've never gone in the other direction of SP in rifle, so I can't comment on that beyond knowing that the pressures are much higher in typical rifle vs typical handgun. And, I think of the

So, if you are thinking of simplifying inventory, get some testing done on your proposed substitutions in your guns with your preferred brands and see how it works for you.
I know that I could buy some brands of SR primer and use them interchangeably in my pistols. Thankfully at this time, I don't have to, but it's good to know what I CAN DO if it gets to that point.

 

[Axis II]

I forgot to empty the SP primers from my lee safety prime and accidentally put them in 223rem. I had two pierced primers until I figured out what I had done. Glad I only made 10 of those. Like others said buy the proper stuff.

 

[jmorris]

Reason I'm interested in this I live in California next week this background for ammo starts cost will go way up amount you can buy is limited no innerweb sales well you can buy off the web have it shipped to an FFL pay a fee background check ect...

I think you should move to Texas, you might offset some of the nuts that have already fled CA and trying the same thing, again, expecting a different result...we are still free for now though.

As above, rifle primers work in some pistols if they are small. Light strikes might be a problem in some but if you are a CCI guy across the board, you should be good to go. Only pistol primers I use in rifle are for 458 socom but that was the intent from the start. They are different heights.

 

[Rule3]

The facts? There are no facts. If you flip through the pages of history you will find it is all a conspiracy.
Long ago all the primer manufacturers got to together and decided to develop 4 different primers just to make things difficult and confusing.
Lets have SP, LP, SR.LR. Then lets had MAGNUM Primers. That was not good enough when the AR 15 became popular so they had to have tactical #41 Primers.even though the data and manuals still show using SR primers.
Then of course there is the "difference" in brisance, Countless internet threads on this and of course primer "hardness" which is actual cup thickness and which ones go bang with light hammers strikes. That is all backed up by personal experience as there are no "real" scientific tests showing anything. Primers are top secret and companies don't share that info. I forgot to add that there are Match primers also, they are better because they say so and are made by experienced primer technicians.

Bottom line is use the correct primer that the data calls for and keep it simple.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

DO NOT USE pistol primers in a rifle cartridge.

What is the difference if you buy 10,000 pistol primers or 7,000 pistol primers and 3,000 rifle primers? Same price.

Like said, use the correct primer for the application and vote in better representatives.

 

[Walkalong]

Shot some SR primers in a 9MM primer test, some failed to fire.

 

[Steve in NC]

just some real life experience with primers and temps and switching for your consideration:

Winchester WSP vs WSR
Accidentally used WSP in 5.56 ammo for 600rds. 100% my fault. Old eyes and didn't check the box close enough to see WSP instead of WSR. As mentioned above by ohihunter2014.... these rounds will pierce the firing indent in the primer cup probably 40-50% of the time. I use them for only shooting in my rifle only and use an older bolt and it burns the bolt face a little. I only use them in my AR and when they are gone, have made it so that mistake won't happen again. So there is a difference in the primers cup thickness and/or material in WSP and WSR. I've fired 1000s of rounds in my AR with WSR and never had one pierce a cup yet. Never used the NATO primer.

Federal 210M and 215M
I have a 338 Lapua Improved. Everyone said you NEED to use magnum primers in that case being its so big and a ton of slow burning powder when I had it built. I've used Fed210M with better accuracy success over Fed215M in BR competition with it. Never once had any issues and chorno numbers were better overall with 210Ms. BUT....
Had a friend in Michigan that literally had a chamber cut with the same reamer so we exchanged load data and compared notes all the time. He used Fed210M all the way down to 6 degrees F in the winter time and started to get misfires. But Fed215M using the same powder at that same temp kept firing without an issue at any temp. I live in NC so we don't normally see those low of temps and had to rely on his testing for low temps issues. I never had an issue but at extreme lower temps there was/is a different in ignition between Fed 210Ms and 215Ms. There is a grain difference in loading between them in comparing chrono numbers also. Meaning a load with 210Ms gives 3050fps... back off 1gr and use 215M and you should be very close to 3050fps again in this case with the powders we were using.

CCI400s used in 40 S&W
I've used thousands of CCI400s in my 40 S&W being that is such a high pressure case when I first started loading for the 40. I used those rounds in full sized M&Ps, Shields, and an FNS40 with no failure to fire issues from those particular striker fired weapons. And never had any pierced primers issues either. After I got a good working load that I was happy with for all 40 S&Ws I shoot, I switch to using regular SP primers and never had a pierced primer with them either. But these are not really hot loads trying to make a pwoer factor or anything. It's my practice ammo for training only.

My experieinces only.

Steve

 

[PWC]

Will always depend on the firearm/firing pin protrusion. If they don't work don't use them.

When needed, use rifle in pistol, never the other way around.

 

[Texas10mm]

just some real life experience with primers and temps and switching for your consideration:

Winchester WSP vs WSR
Accidentally used WSP in 5.56 ammo for 600rds. 100% my fault. Old eyes and didn't check the box close enough to see WSP instead of WSR. As mentioned above by ohihunter2014.... these rounds will pierce the firing indent in the primer cup probably 40-50% of the time. I use them for only shooting in my rifle only and use an older bolt and it burns the bolt face a little. I only use them in my AR and when they are gone, have made it so that mistake won't happen again. So there is a difference in the primers cup thickness and/or material in WSP and WSR. I've fired 1000s of rounds in my AR with WSR and never had one pierce a cup yet. Never used the NATO primer.

Federal 210M and 215M
I have a 338 Lapua Improved. Everyone said you NEED to use magnum primers in that case being its so big and a ton of slow burning powder when I had it built. I've used Fed210M with better accuracy success over Fed215M in BR competition with it. Never once had any issues and chorno numbers were better overall with 210Ms. BUT....
Had a friend in Michigan that literally had a chamber cut with the same reamer so we exchanged load data and compared notes all the time. He used Fed210M all the way down to 6 degrees F in the winter time and started to get misfires. But Fed215M using the same powder at that same temp kept firing without an issue at any temp. I live in NC so we don't normally see those low of temps and had to rely on his testing for low temps issues. I never had an issue but at extreme lower temps there was/is a different in ignition between Fed 210Ms and 215Ms. There is a grain difference in loading between them in comparing chrono numbers also. Meaning a load with 210Ms gives 3050fps... back off 1gr and use 215M and you should be very close to 3050fps again in this case with the powders we were using.

CCI400s used in 40 S&W
I've used thousands of CCI400s in my 40 S&W being that is such a high pressure case when I first started loading for the 40. I used those rounds in full sized M&Ps, Shields, and an FNS40 with no failure to fire issues from those particular striker fired weapons. And never had any pierced primers issues either. After I got a good working load that I was happy with for all 40 S&Ws I shoot, I switch to using regular SP primers and never had a pierced primer with them either. But these are not really hot loads trying to make a pwoer factor or anything. It's my practice ammo for training only.

My experieinces only.

Steve

9mm operates at the same pressure as the "high" pressure .40 Short and Weak. So does .357 Mag. The .327 Federal Magnum is a much higher pressure round at 45k PSI.

 

[berettaprofessor]

Buy the correct primers for the job, then later, if you really have to, everyone will be experimenting and talking about what can be used in what in a pinch.

As usual, Walkalong is the voice of ultimate wisdom.