Priming on Dillon 650 versus Hornady LNL progressive

[The Wiry Irishman]

But as for the Dillon, all I know is it uses a vertical drop tube like the LNL and then some type of rotating plate.

I was going to go take a picture of mine and post it, then I remembered that I accidentally left my digital camera outside through the two largest thunderstorms of the year... I guess I'll just try to describe it verbally.

The 650 does use a disc, about 2 inches in diameter, with primer-size holes all around the outside. (there's a separate disc for large and small primers) Assuming you're standing directly in front of your bench looking down on the primer disc, the primer tube is at 3 o' clock, station 2 (where the cases are primed) is at 9 o' clock, and there's a small plastic ramp under the primer disc at around 6 o' clock. A primer drops from the tube down into one of the cutouts in the disc. Every time the ram is raised, the primer disc rotates by one cutout via a tab that hooks into a primer hole in the 6 o'clock location, pulls back, and advances to the next hole. There is also a manual pull tab attached to this so you can cycle the primer disc with your finger. When a primer makes its way over to 9 o'clock to be put into a case (there are 7 or 8 primer holes between 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock), the primer disc becomes the meat in a sandwich, the bread of which is the shell plate and the primer ram. At this point, the primer is resting directly on top of the ram. On the forward stroke of the handle, the primer ram comes up, shoves the primer into the case, and the primer disc cycles forward again when the handle is pulled down.

I know that seems like a lot of words, but the priming system is actually incredibly simple. I really wish I could post a good picture... maybe I can borrow a digital camera from a friend.

 

[Black Dime]

Shoney, I started reloading about 1963 with a Lyman Single Stage. Advanced to a Lee turret, then to Lee Pro 1000. Now own Dillon. Never loaded on a Hornady. Can't knock them; however the analysis of the Lee/Hornady/Dillon is incorrect. I believe you could take five reloaders and they would reach different conclusions on certain issues addressed. But I am biased or, maybe, more than satisfied.
I have three 650s and a Square Deal B.

 

[Shoney]

Black Dime
Not meaning to sound flipant here, but the OP's question at hand is Priming on Dillon 650 vs Hornady LNL Progressive This is not supposed to be a "my passionate purple is bigger than yours".

FYI I started loading in 1960 on a Pacific single stage, got a used Herters single stage in the 70's, in the early 90's got a 550, in late 90' got the LNL AP, and have regularly loaded on my hunting buddies 650, which he sold to get the LNL after extended loading sessions at my house.

 

[lgbloader]

"my passionate purple is bigger than yours".

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there. - LOL

If I was drinking coffee, I would have spilled it.

LGB

 

[Shoney]

Spilling is much better than spewing it on the monitor and keyboard.

 

[floydster]

I'm going to the concession stand to get a box of Dots.

 

[dmazur]

...box of Dots.

Yes, but I need to know what color Dots you like.

 

[mallc]

My 5.56 cents

I have a Dillon 650 and a new Hornady LNL AP. Both are great!

The Dillion has better fit and finish and the mechanics are more robust.

Neither spent primer system is as good as Redding's. I mount my presses on plates and install them on the loading bench as needed. I still don't have a good way to deal with the LNL spent primer tube.

The basic 650 auto loads brass from a column, the LNL is manual feed until you buy the elertric feeder.

Dies won't fit in their storage box with LNL bushings attached. The 650 tool head needs a covered stand.

The Dillon has better safety devices. I had to add a Dillion low primer sensor and a RCBS Lockout Die to the LNL to get same set up I have on the 650.

The LNL is a great press for making 200 to 300 rounds an hour where the 650 does 500 to 600.

The LNL is a great hand operated press for dedicating to a mid-production-range caliber.

You can add a bullet feeder to the 650 for $500 and a drive motor for $850 this gets you an automated ammo machine for less than $2500.

Change-over cost is comparable - in-spite of what you hear. You have to buy a bunch of pieces to get a complete powder measure for the LNL.

LNL guys usually quote the price for the basic LNL against a nicely outfitted 650xl. They are not that far apart considering the differences in the base machines.

The price on the LNL accounting for the free bullets is unbelievable for the value you get. But...the LNL is NOT a Dillon 650xl.

All that said, I'm ordering another of each for the shop.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[uf-engineer]

I still don't have a good way to deal with the LNL spent primer tube.

Put the business end of the tube in the trash can. The other end of the tube mounts on to the press...

I think the LNL press is a smoother machine and is more in the class of the Dillion 650 than 550. It is also cheaper especially in the long run. It is robust enough. Please don't stone me for saying so...

 

[mallc]

Both are Great

As I said I have both are great! I'd put the LNL in between the 550 and the 650.

I'll post my fix for the LNL spent primer tube when I complete the side by side comparison I'm working on. Not everyone hangs their press off the side of a workbench.

Scott

 

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

As far as Mallc not having a "...good way to deal with the LNL spent primer tube.", I simply drill a hole in the top of an empty 35MM film canister and stick the end of the tube in it. If you make the hole small enough for a snug fit on the tube, the empty canister can hold a couple hundred spent primers before I take it off and pour the spent primers in a trash can. What's the problem with that?

Better fit and finish on the Dillon? And the 650 more robust? You have to be kidding. I can't see that one is better than the other.

You can have the whole electric case feeder for both machines. I wouldn't take one if you gave it to me. I can't stand the noise, don't think it adds any value, and I would prefer to load my cases in the shell plate by hand. Obviously I feel the same way about an automatic bullet feeder. Come on - why not just buy factory ammo if your time is so valuable? Gee, getting an "automated ammo machine for less than $2,500" - no, not for me.

My dies fit in their boxes with bushings attached. Then again, I only have RCBS, Lyman, and Hornady dies.

To me, the whole lock out die and powder cop dies are completely unnecessary. The Hornady powder measure is case activated and makes accurate drops. The whole powder cop die stuff is just an extra motivational sale item to get folks to spend more money.

I don't know how many rounds I can make on my L&L an hour - I have just never been in a race with anyone. My friend has a Dillon 650 that I have used many times. He, like I, is also not particularly interested in having a production race. When we load together on his machine, we seem to make what appears to be a similar production rate as we do on my L&L.

My 650 friend and I both use the same powder measure for each caliber we use, so we have to adjust our measures each time we change calibers. Neither of us is faster at it, but then again we are not in a race. He changes his tool head while I change my dies in their bushings. It takes us both about the same amount of time. He does complain, however, that his tool head is a lot more expensive than my two or three bushings, so I don't think change over cost is comparable at all. You mean you actually buy a powder measure for each tool head or caliber change? Well, if you can afford a $2,500 automated ammo machine, I guess a few more powder measures is no big deal.

Mallc talks about L&L guys comparing a "basic" L&L to a "nicely outfitted 650XL." Hey Mallc, you would really spit on my L&L. It was one of the first L&Ls produced when I purchased it in 1997, and it is still in its original state. I have not upgraded anything. I still feed my cases and bullets by hand, and my original primer feed system still works like a charm. I still have the original shell plates and powder measure systems. They all worked correctly from the beginning and still work correctly this many years later. I have not had to replace any parts other than one spring for the shell plate which Hornady sent me two of them for free. Yes, I do reload 9mm on my press without the new eject system.

Yes, the L&L is a lot less expensive than the 650, but free bullets should not be why one should buy an L&L. You should try both machines at some length and then make your decision based on what pleased you the most. If it happens to be the L&L, just look at the free bullets as icing on the cake.

I agree with Mallc that the L&L is not a Dillon 650. It is a Hornady L&L that performs excellent work, and it does not need to take a back seat to the Dillon. I actually prefer the L&L, but I have spent many hours using the 650, and I would not begin to say either one is "better" than the other.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[lykoris]

You can have the whole electric case feeder for both machines. I wouldn't take one if you gave it to me. I can't stand the noise, don't think it adds any value, and I would prefer to load my cases in the shell plate by hand.

I found the above rather curious, for me a progressive automatically means a case feeder.

I've fed a 650 by hand to see what it was like, I would be wiser to have bought a 550(don't consider it a true progressive - just my view) rather than get a 650 without a casefeeder.

I have a 650 and here are the things I don't like

1-3 are really minor problems with quickfix solutions
4 - money making scheme as far as I'm considered, it's a progressive so the handle should function as such....how many that own a 650 and case feeder have bought the roller handle?
5 - inconvenience more than anything else.

1. primer spent system - they come out of the blue box meant to collect all the spent primers

2. unused primers get fed to a lip that in my view is too small so even one live primer isn't caught 100% of the time....leaving you with live primers on the floor

3. the cartridge container that feeds a finished cartridge into the blue box is too close to the main operating body that at times has caused the press to not operate

4. the ball handle that comes with the 650 is a 100% cop out, it should be a roller handle from the start rather than offer it as an extra.....for more $$$

5. the powder funnel for .45acp sticks on new cases/highly cleaned cases...which means I have to remove it and polish it every now and again.

given the above, I love my 650.

I would appreciate somebody else being anal in relation to a LNL so I can compare in the light of day their machine.

 

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got both and there both good presses that have advantages and disadvantages when compared to each other. Bottom line is both will serve the avearge handloader for a lifetime of use. Both companys stand behind there product and i wouldnt be ashamed to own either and im not ashamed to own both.

 

[Walkalong]

I simply drill a hole in the top of an empty 35MM film canister and stick the end of the tube in it. If you make the hole small enough for a snug fit on the tube,

I am using the canister from my old Projector, which is basically the same size as a 35MM film canister. Works great. You just have to remember to empty it, or the primers can back up into the brass tube and cause a problem. When you load a big run, it would be nice to have a bigger canister, or use the tubing run into something.

 

[longdayjake]

I just barely got the LNL about a month ago. So far it has been a rather amazing press and I am extremely happy with it. The drawback to the priming system is that its difficult to change primer types unless you completely use up your primers from the feed tube. I have never used a dillon so I cant help you there. I bought the LNL because I liked the half indexing feature and it appeared that it could do everything that the 650 could do with less money and I get free bullets. I will say that hornady has dillon beat in the marketing arena when it comes to offering free bullets with their press. It sold me. I was leaning 650 until I broke down the price for everything and my preference turned out to be purely price motivated rather than quality.

 

[David Wile]

Hey Jake,

In your post above, you mentioned, "The drawback to the priming system is that its difficult to change primer types unless you completely use up your primers from the feed tube." Like I said earlier, my L&L is from back in 1997 and does not have any of the new things that are on the presses today. However, my primer feed mechanism has a rocker switch type primer shut off to stop the primers from feeding when you want to stop and change primers. I can simply move the switch to the blocked position to stop primer feeding, remove the whole primer feed tube mechanism, remove the primer tube and turn it upside down so no primers fall out, and then turn the tube back up so the primers left inside the tube flow back into an empty primer pack.

I was just looking at the new L&L manual online, and it would appear that Hornady has changed the primer system and no longer have a tube shut off switch like they originally did. I guess I have to agree with you that their new primer mechanism is a drawback to changing primers.

To Lykoris who finds my disdain for case feeders curious because his definition of a "progressive automatically means a case feeder", I would suggest that folks are spoiled today. For nearly forty years I did my metallic reloading on a number single stage presses. When I got my L&L AP in 1997, I was thrilled with the idea of getting a finished cartridge with every completed stroke of the handle. I still use my single stage presses for a lot of jobs that aren't worth bothering with on a progressive, and that is true of both metallic and shotshell loading.

For those who are automatic focused all the way, what is next after you add an automatic case feeder and an automatic bullet feeder? Buy another machine servo to operate the handle for you? Gee, I remember when a lot of folks used to call this "handloading." For me, I'll keep my hand in my handloading by feeding my cases and bullets myself, and I'll also continue to use my single stage presses for all my odd jobs.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

 

[lykoris]

I guess those that bought an automobile after the horse and cart were also spoiled And I expect flying shuttles that automatically drive my children to their appointed destination will have them spoiled. That's progress to me not being spoilt but each of us has a different view of things.

No need to take my interpretation of a progressive to heart. To me a progressive means volume and auto-index/casefeeder are part of that picture. Some people will no doubt disagree(maybe my view is completely wrong) but the reason I went progressive to begin with was volume and limited time.

I have two T7s(turret) and a single stage (forster co-ax) which I love to use for rifle but for handgun ammo I need volume min/max 250/500 a week.

I would hate to have to crank out 300 rounds of 45, 100 each of 9/357 on a single stage each and every week

I don't have the time nor the patience to do 500 rounds of handgun ammo on a turret, certainly not a single stage and I don't get a kick out of hand feeding cases.

But that is me and you are you - we are all different in our approach/view of things.

 

[Walkalong]

Another vote for not using a case feeder. I like to put my hands on that case just one more time to get another look at it before it gets loaded, despite the fact it has passed through my hands 3 or 4 times already.

I am also not in a big hurry. The LNL goes plenty fast for me when feeding cases by hand.

If I loaded a gazillion rounds a year instead of a few K, I might consider one, and understand why some folks like them, but I will do without one. Besides, I'm cheap.

 

[mallc]

To me, the whole lock out die and powder cop dies are completely unnecessary. The Hornady powder measure is case activated and makes accurate drops. The whole powder cop die stuff is just an extra motivational sale item to get folks to spend more money.

We hold a Type 6 federal license to manufacture ammunition for sale. Today I received an inquiry from my local EMS/Swat team to see if we could provide 900 rnds of .223, 300 rnds of 40 SW, and 300 rnds of 357 sig for a practice session. Who in their right mind would consider accepting an order like this WITHOUT using readily available safety equipment?

For those who are automatic focused all the way, what is next after you add an automatic case feeder and an automatic bullet feeder? Buy another machine servo to operate the handle for you?

Yep...That's just what I mean! Woohooo!

You mean you actually buy a powder measure for each tool head or caliber change? Well, if you can afford a $2,500 automated ammo machine, I guess a few more powder measures is no big deal.

Your are right. $2500 and a few powder measures is no big deal. Precision and reliability is.

Like I said....BOTH are great!

Scott

 

[David Wile]

Hey Scott,

You are not a reloader. You are an ammunition manufacturer - or at least on your way to becoming one. Shame, shame, shame. You take a beautiful craft one can spend a lifetime working at and enjoying new learning experiences, and then you turn it into a money making factory with no reloading heart.

And then there is poor Lykoris - all he wants to do is pull a trigger. You poor souls have no idea of the almost mystical spirit of spending countless hours sitting and standing before a loading bench making great new creations to take to the range for an hour or so of actual testing one's endeavors.

I can see that I just have to give up on you guys. To be a true reloader, your very nature requires you to be cheap at heart. Now look at Walkalong for instance. Within Walkalong beats the heart of a true reloader. Without any shame, he admits that he is too cheap to spend the bucks for an automatic case feeder. Like myself, I suspect if you gave him a casefeeder for his progressive machine he would not take it. Walkalong is probably one of those old folks collecting Social Security who spent many more years working a single stage press than he has working a progressive. He also says that he is not in a big hurry. Again, that is the sign of an old reloader practicing his craft rather than one of the younger Yuppie crowd who values trigger time more so than bench time.

Oh my, what to do with guys like Scott and Lykoris. Walkalong and I and the other old folks will soon be gone, and no one will remember what purpose an RCBS RockChucker or an old Herter's press ever served.

OK, you guys. You may actually load more rounds with all the automated stuff. But, if you really want to appreciate a truly great reloading experience, you have to take your Marlin 1895 Cowboy rifle in 45-70 out in the field with your kit bag and reload your cartridges on the spot.

"How?", do you ask? Well, in your kit bag you should have your Lyman Nutcracker reloading hand tool with 45-70 die set, a supply of primers, powder, a powder dipper sized just for your load, lube and lube pad, and a supply of bullets. You can shoot till you are out of cartridges and then sit on a big log and start reloading the empty cases right then, and right there. If you want an even better experience, you can also carry an iron pot, a bullet mould, and a supply of good hard alloy to cast your bullets as you shoot them.

OK, to be honest, even I would not go so far as to be casting bullets out in the field. I use gas checks and size and lube my bullets with a Lyman Lubrisizer, and I really don't see myself doing that out in the field. I have, however, gone away in my 5th wheel camper and spent my time casting bullets with my Lyman bottom pour electric pot. I did not size and lube them while camping - just moulded a couple thousand in an afternoon and saved them for gas checks, lubing and sizing when I got home to my bench.

Forget the moulding bullets in the field, but if the idea of reloading your Cowboy ammo in the field with a hand tool every now and then does not raise some sense of adventure in you, then you really don't have a true reloader's bone in your body.

Best wishes guys,
Dave Wile

 

[lykoris]

David,

I understand somewhat better your perception of 'us' being spoiled.

I think it's rather demeaning to be called a yuppie though given you don't know me from Adam. (hey, I don't own any Dillon 1050s )

I put a lot of love into rifle cartridges(although having giraud trimmers per calibre is probably another no no from you) but I am not going to deburr flash holes or regulate primer pockets on handgun brass so I can drop steel plates more effectively at 25m

So yes, I will fully admit for handgun ammo I don't want to spend eternity in front of my bench, I'd rather pull a trigger along with my wife and enjoy a trip to the range together whether it's a Sat. or Sun.

I also think you could be onto something in terms of the evolution of the 'reloader' from prior days.

this is all severely off-topic though

And actually I am still waiting for somebody(trying to get back on topic desperately) to really critically evaluate the LNL the way I did with the Dillon 650.

If I was to buy another machine in the morning it would still be a 650 as I know its drawbacks but apart from those listed above(minor in my view) it runs flawlessly.

Regards and all the best

 

[GW Staar]

And actually I am still waiting for somebody(trying to get back on topic desperately) to really critically evaluate the LNL the way I did with the Dillon 650.

Even that reply would be off topic. Primer Systems remember?
Speaking of off topic, it seems the whole topic is biased, since IMO the best & safest primer system is on RCBS's Progressive, the Pro 2000. No holes in the ceiling ever.

I found the above rather curious, for me a progressive automatically means a case feeder.

For the rest of us progressive means a fully finished cartridge with each full stroke of the lever. That said, I agree with you that a feeder is a most desirable need, but, not necessarily, a case feeder. Finally, as a user of the "off topic" RCBS Pro 2000, I get to join the ranks of you guys with feeders. RCBS's pistol bullet feeder is finally in stock at Wideners! Now I will have the ability to load 5 or 6 hundred rounds per second...oops per hour. I don't think I will ever try...I value my health at the range more than that...My biggest speed limitation is distractions...and me...not the press.

Your review of the XL650's strengths and weaknesses was honest. It is a great press, which fits to a "T" the need of an awful lot of reloaders. As you correctly point out, it's not perfect. But neither is any other press. Each has its strengths and weaknesses and some times strengths to one may in fact be a weakness for another. I've used a friends 650 and all the parts and doodads, intimidated me, especially when I thought about keeping everything synced, clean, and lubed. (I saw the result when all wasn't perfect) I'm older than most of you and have reloaded the slow methodical way for 38 years. I don't learn new tricks as fast as I use to.
For me the Dillon didn't fit, the much simpler RCBS Pro 2000 did. I haven't been sorry, except that my lack of patience, which made me go "progressive" in the first place, (happens to guys past 55) made me order the new Bullet Feeder!

To the guy who asked the thread's original question, you would be wise to examine the green one too. And yes, you can get a "Low Primer Warning" device as an option. I don't worry about that, as I don't put a bigger number of cases in the in-box, than I have primers ready to feed. When the in-box is empty I snap 50 more primers in place, about as fast as I type this sentence.

I'd be glad to honestly describe its few weakness to anybody interested...in another thread.

 

[mallc]

Dave

Hey Scott,

You are not a reloader. You are an ammunition manufacturer - or at least on your way to becoming one. Shame, shame, shame. You take a beautiful craft one can spend a lifetime working at and enjoying new learning experiences, and then you turn it into a money making factory with no reloading heart.

If it's any consolation, I have used the same 6 30-30 cartridges since my granddad gave me his rifle, six rounds, and his LEE Loader. I also loving load 30-06 for my M1 Garand and .223 one by one on a T7.

We do agree that Walkalong and ReloaderFred and RCModeler, and Bushmaster, and a bunch of others are really great guys.

Scott

 

[GW Staar]

I was cruising through the 1911 forum tonight and this thread caught my attention.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=240034
There's one of the "minor" flaws with a 650 tube style primer feed system.
Seems like I read about one of these once a month.

Question to 650 users: What are these unfortunates doing wrong?

 

[lykoris]

if the guy in your thread had aligned his primer punch properly he would no doubt have avoided the unfortunate incident.

as always the blast shield avoided any injury and everything will be replaced by Dillon free of charge given their lifetime warranty.