Prisoners of political correctness

[Khornet]

Pax,

sorry. Didn't follow that at all.

My question was: why do you love your kids? The answer, of course: because they're your kids, and you're their mom. No logic needed or possible.

Why do I hate seeing women in combat?

Because they're women, and I'm a man. Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't like seeing MEN in combat either, but I accept that sometimes it must be done. But we don't HAVE to send women into battle.

That's all there is to my position. I'm not asking anyone to like it. Just don't tell me I feel that way because I'm a (insert epithet here: hater, sexist, patriarchal, condescender).

My position says exactly zero about women's capabilites. I can rob a bank, but it doesn't follow that I should.

 

[pax]

sorry. Didn't follow that at all.

Then I'll spell it out for you.

I love my kids. No logic needed or provided (though there are logical reasons -- such as the logical reason that instinctual love for one's children keeps us from killing them the day they are born because of the noise & mess they produce, thus human mothers possess an instinct which furthers survival of the species. But I digress).

My love for my children is a personal thing. I neither expect nor demand that other people love my children, nor do I demand that they behave as though they do even if they don't.

If I expected other people to behave as though they loved my children, I would also expect to supply reasons that they could accept. I could not expect them to simply love my kids, with no reason given nor required.

Translating this to women in combat. You "hate" to see women in combat, just as I love my kids. That is reasonable. But to demand that others behave as though they "hate" the sight just as you do, without providing a reason, is to expect what is unreasonable.

Make more sense now?

As for the rest of your message: I still haven't called you any names or assigned any motives to you, and I don't intend to do so.

Oh, and I share Cuchulainn's admiration, too. Honesty is rare.

pax

Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal. -- Alexander Hamilton

 

[2dogs]

I thought it was pretty clear why women should not serve in combat- because they are inferior to men in every way.

 

[2dogs]

Bet that got your attention

Just kidding, you know.

 

[pax]

2dogs, you slime!

Made me spill my tea all over the desk. Durn you!



pax

Talking with a man is like trying to saddle a cow. You work like hell, but what's the point? -- Gladys Upham

 

[2dogs]

2dogs, you slime!

Low down, ain't I?

Sorry about the tea.

 

[Blackhawk]

I thought it was pretty clear why women should not serve in combat- because they are inferior to men in every way.

If you add "with regard to the exigencies of combat," I agree with that, joke or not.

I don't want to serve with women in combat because I don't want distractions or to be distracted, and I certainly don't want the rest of my soldiers to be distracted either.

 

[pax]

Blackhawk,

So your position is that,

1) women can't do the job of protecting the country in combat, and

2) the presence of women in combat would distract you, and

3) keep you and other men from doing your job?

pax

The big mistake that men make is that when they turn thirteen or fourteen and all of a sudden they've reached puberty, they believe that they like women. Actually, you're just horny. It doesn't mean you like women any more at twenty-one than you did at ten. -- Jules Feiffer

 

[Khornet]

Pax,

sorry. Answer doesn't scan. I think we are swinging past each other.

Neither of us has any influence on whether women are sent, so it's a non-sequitur to say I demand anything. Someone raised the matter of women in combat, and I gave my position.

Oh, and you bloody well WOULD demand that others love your children: you're their mom, after all.

Anyway, it'll all be different when I'm King.

Cuchulainn: Thanks. Pax, too, for that matter.

 

[DeltaElite]

ME? A troublemaker? Never.

 

[Blackhawk]

Not even close, pax.

There's very little shooting going on in combat. It's mostly waiting while staying alert and bored at the same time.

Embedded women are distracting and they cause distractions. They can't help mingling with the men and vice versa.

A man going into battle has to think that his peers are as or more capable than he is. Otherwise, he "has" to take care of the perceptibly weaker ones. A man is just another soldier, but a woman is a girlfriend, wife, aunt, sister, mother, etc., who "must" be protected and who can't heft a combat load when necessary. BTW, the combat loads of the present are between 70-120 pounds that's never evenly distributed like that much fat.

One of the fastest ways to die in combat is to be distracted. Distractions have no place there whether they're women, children, pets, or whatever.

I don't have any problem with all woman aircrews, etc., if they can meet all the other requirements to get the rides. I also have no problems with all woman infantry or armor units if they can pull it off. I just think it's stupid to expect men in combat to perform optimally if women are mixed in with them.

 

[D_Burchfield]

IMHO, Pvt. Lynch kicked ***, took names, (To put on Allah's tablet) and did her job. She performed as well as any man in that situation. Had she and her unit had as much ammo as a front line unit, they might all have come out a lot better. She kept shooting until she was out of ammunition. Sounds verrry tactical to me. She may very well have fixed her bayonet and stuck an enemy during her capture.



FNC reported that her injuries included two broken legs, gunshot wounds and a stab wound. "Tough as nails" said one of the medics who helped treat her immediately after her rescue.

YOU GO, GIRL!! ( Sorry, politically incorrect)
YOU GO, FEMALE MEMBER OF THE SPECIES!!

This gender thing is blown way out of proportion. The physiological differences between the genders is obvious. However, the heart, spirit and fury of a woman can be just as great or greater than that of a man. How many guys in the military are 6'4", 240lb and tough as nails. When I served, ('71-74) we were a bunch of ordinary guys of all shapes and sizes.
The draft made no distinctions. Everybody gave their best regardless of any type of limitations.

Maybe it will be disheartening to the Iraqis that our women are kicking their butts.

 

[Kaylee]

Gotta admit, I respect Pvt. Lynch and all the women (and men) over there. I'm not surprised at all that she held out to the end like that. Futher, I'd say most any reasonably well trained woman would put up just as ferocious a fight, given the probable consequences of capture.

I've no doubt in my mind that when it comes down to M16's at 200 meters, the gender of the person pulling the trigger is pretty far down on the list for final effectiveness.

All that said.. I think I've finally come to agree with the men that say women have no place in ground combat, excepting last ditch "throw everyone that can hold a rifle at 'em" defenses -- as in Stalingrad, as mentioned.

Partly for the distraction issue already raised (already an issue in quiet times, so much the more if one is surrounded by death and scared crazy).. and partly because well... y'all are on average better built for it. Anyone who's slogged through backcountry in a mixed group, or sparred hand-to-hand across gender lines knows that those strength, hygene, and endurance issues do add up, and they do make a difference.

Besides.. you guys can hit hard... owwww..

-K

 

[George Hill]

The subject is women in combat... Not PAX in Combat. Pax has chosen the path of motherhood. An HONORABLE path in spite of DeltaElite's chest pounding.

PFC Jessica Lynch is a good argument that women can fight side by side with men.
However women can't do 100 pushups and pack around 120 pound rucks.
Is that really so important? I am sure there are members of the Republican Guard that can crank out over a hundred pushups in the 2 minute time limit. Doesn't make them any better soldiers does it?
Real fighting is about Spirit and Mindset. PFC Lynch has both in spades. I'd take a PFC Lynch over any "Just barely passed the entrance tests" redneck that joined up because he couldn't land a regular job.
I think the arguement of Men vs Women is outdated.
When I was in, I observed 2 women in combat situations... MP's. One was fireplug of a woman that could do dang near everything a man could do save pissing while standing up. The other was a younger Officer. She was very attractive and the subject of many discussions involving romantic settings. She looked awesome in BDU pants... WOW! Was this a distraction? Not when it came time to do a job. When something had to be done, it got done. She could dish it out just as good as anyone else. She was a Pro. Not only that, she was ferocious. More importantly she was smart. I didn't talk to her, but I was told she could plan and execute an Ambush to rival that of any Infantry squad. She had loyalty of all the other guys under her. In fact, they are proud of her. I'm even sure they would have fought harder for her.
But women are too weak...
Please.
Go watch 1/2 the new recruits when they go into Basic... many can not even do 10 pushups when they get there. Strength can be developed in Men and Women.

I think if a woman has the grit to pass Infantry AIT - they should be allowed in. However if they want in - they have to be integrated. They have to be able to put up with hanging out with the Men. Same Barracks. Same Latrine. Same shower. In an Infantry Squad they have to be all the same. If they can handle that, then they can be "IN". And yes, I have thought of all the other "Problems" that would be included with letting them "In". I don't think it really is a problem. Men and Women have been together for ever... I don't see the issue.

 

[DeltaElite]

Chest pounding? Me? Never.

Actually Pfc Lynch's dad says she wasn't shot or stabbed, sounds like the story is falling apart under the light of truth. The story was made up by the media, not the military or Pfc Lynch.

She is still a brave lady and has my respect, as does Pax, regardless of what George thinks.

Oh George, did Pax ask you to come to her defense?
Highly doubtful since she handles her own quite well.
So you must be intervening out of chivalry, that's so sweet.

 

[George Hill]

No... No request for covering fire.

I volunteered. And your right... she was handling you just fine.

 

[DeltaElite]

Yes she was, that is why I like her.
BTW George, got any aspirin?
I seem to have this crushing pain in my forehead.

 

[pax]

DE,

If you insist on :banghead: and then irritate George ... well, the headache should go away in a day or two, and the bruises will eventually fade.

I doubt aspirin will help much. Just make the bruising that much worse.

pax

If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten. -- George Carlin

 

[DeltaElite]

I do seem to have masochistic tendencies, don't I?