A Double Ordeal for Female Prisoners

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Warning: Typical self-flagelation from LA Times.

Somehow the US (collectively) is responsible for the barbaric acts of a few Islamic tribes in reaction to rape victims.

Outrage: This is hardly abuse. That this story air in the midst of "abuse" allegations by Iraqi sources.

Improprieties does NOT equal abuse.

Removing a headscarf from a woman prisoner?
Making women prisoners disrobe in front of male jailers?
"Stories" of US abuses and sexual misbehavior among the Iraqis interviewed?

*stop* projecting their harem fantasies on US soldiers!

See the Yahoo link here:

yahoo news


A Double Ordeal for Female Prisoners

Tue May 11, 7:55 AM ET Add Top Stories - Los Angeles Times to My Yahoo!


By Tracy Wilkinson Times Staff Writer

BAGHDAD — One woman told her attorney she was forced to disrobe in front of male prison guards. After much coaxing, another woman described how she was raped by U.S. soldiers. Then she fainted.


A U.S. Army report on abuses at Abu Ghraib prison documented one case of an American guard sexually abusing a female detainee, and a Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman said Monday that 1,200 unreleased images of abuse at Abu Ghraib included "inappropriate behavior of a sexual nature."


Whether it was one or numerous cases of rape, many Iraqis believe that sexual abuse of women in U.S.-run jails was rampant. As a result, female prisoners face grave prospects after they are released: denial, ostracism or even death.


A woman who is raped brings shame on her family in the Islamic world. In many cases, rape victims have been killed by their relatives to salvage family honor, although there is no evidence this has happened to women who have been prisoners in Iraq (news - web sites).


"It is like being sentenced to death," said Sheik Mohammed Bashar Faydhi, a senior cleric based at Baghdad's largest Sunni mosque.


Some Iraqi women said they were struggling to come to terms with the alleged abuses of female detainees at Abu Ghraib and other U.S.-controlled lockups. Few female inmates will talk about it. Their lawyers lower their voices when the subject of rape comes up.


"I hope it's not true, because were it to be true, it is just too horrible to imagine," said Rajaa Habib Khuzaai, an obstetrician who is one of three women on the Iraqi Governing Council.


This week, Khuzaai was allowed access to a detention center housing women — a privilege rarely granted to outsiders before the scandal.


But female lawyers who visited the prison in March said their clients provided accounts of abuse and humiliation.


To enter the prison west of Baghdad, the attorneys waded through dirt and coils of barbed wire, and waited for hours.


Inside, they met with nine female detainees — four of whom, they said, had not been charged with any crime. U.S. military officials said at the time that there were 10 or 11 women being held at Abu Ghraib.


One lawyer, Sahra Janabi, said her clients found it difficult to talk about their experiences in prison. Seemingly minor actions by U.S. soldiers, such as removing a woman's head scarf, represented a violation to these Muslim women.


A prison translator was present in the meetings and took notes, Janabi said.


"We could not talk freely," she said. "The women were devastated. They broke down crying."


According to Janabi, only one prisoner, a middle-aged owner of a cigarette stand, would speak openly, and said she did not care if the guards punished her.


She told the lawyers that she had been forced to disrobe in front of male guards, an action that an Iraqi translator found so disgraceful he turned his head away in embarrassment.


Janabi and her colleagues said many women who had been detained are wives or relatives of senior Baath Party officials or of suspected insurgents. U.S. Army officials have acknowledged detaining women in hopes of persuading male relatives to provide information. The lawyers said interrogators sometimes threatened to kill detainees.





Dozens of people — lawyers, Iraqi officials, Iraqi and foreign human rights activists — have sought access to the prisons during the last year with minimal success. Stories of physical and sexual torture were rampant for much of that time. Iraqi officials and lawyers say U.S. military and governmental secrecy created a climate that allowed abuses.

Women represented a small percentage of about 40,000 detainees processed by U.S. authorities.

Once the women are freed, a new trauma begins, Iraqis say.

Khuzaai, the Governing Council member, said most female detainees cannot talk about what they've been through. They and their families try to pretend nothing ever happened, she said.

Another lawyer, Amul Swadi, said her client fainted before providing further details of being raped and knifed by U.S. soldiers.

Five former detainees described to their lawyers having been beaten. But they did not say they had been raped.

"They are very ashamed," Janabi said. "They say, 'We can't tell you. We have families. We cannot speak about what happened.' "

In Iraq, silence may be their best protection.

Faydhi, the cleric, said an Iraqi man cannot acknowledge having had a female relative in prison. The shame, he said, is bad enough if the woman was in an Iraqi jail. To have been taken by the Americans compounds the humiliation.

Her life may be in danger especially if the woman is from a large, prominent tribe, he said, and her family believes she has been raped, Faydhi said.

Faydhi, an official with Iraq's Board of Islamic Clergy and a professor at the Islamic University, said a man will be discouraged from killing his female relative who has been released from prison if he seeks permission of an imam to restore the family's honor. But the cleric also said imams have limited ability to prevent this kind of murder.

"I would remind him that she is a victim, and ask, how can we victimize her even more? I would tell him to keep it secret, but that if word gets out, I would try to convince him that she should be seen as a patriotic symbol," Faydhi said. "But it is really difficult to convince an Iraqi to think in such a manner."

Khuzaai said the stigma would be unbearable.

"Like any woman who is raped, there is the mental, psychological breakdown and everything that is related to the self," she said. "But then there's the family and society. If a rape has happened, a family will never talk about it, not to the public, and maybe not even among themselves."




:cuss: :fire:
 
When I read that article earlier today, my thoughts were much the same as yours--Why are the writers of this article blaming us for the misogyny and injustice of Islamic society? While a small part of this story is about actual rapes perpetrated by Americans, who should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, for the most part it is about blaming us for Islam's "blame the woman (even if nothing happened)" mentality. :banghead: :fire:
 
From what I have heard people have to disrobe all the time in prison. They have an odd habit of hiding stuff, and the only way to find it is to go in looking for it.
 
When I read that article earlier today, my thoughts were much the same as yours--Why are the writers of this article blaming us for the misogyny and injustice of Islamic society? While a small part of this story is about actual rapes perpetrated by Americans, who should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, for the most part it is about blaming us for Islam's "blame the woman (even if nothing happened)" mentality.

Rule #1. It is ALWAYS our fault.

Rule #2. See Rule #1.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=sto...i_ea/egypt_iraq_american_beheaded_3&printer=1

Video Seems to Show Beheading of American

2 hours, 17 minutes ago


CAIRO, Egypt - A video posted Tuesday on an Islamic militant Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq (news - web sites), and said the execution was carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.


AP Photo
Slideshow: Video Shows Beheading of American in Iraq

Video Shows Beheading of American in Iraq
(AP Video)




Latest headlines:
· U.N. Envoy Discusses Iraq Interim Gov't.
AP - 3 minutes ago
· Germany urges US to restore moral leadership amid abuse scandal
AFP - 5 minutes ago
· U.S., Tribunal Disagree on Saddam Handoff
AP - 5 minutes ago
Special Coverage





The video showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks, standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit — similar to a prisoner's uniform — who identified himself as Nick Berg, a U.S. contractor whose body was found on a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday.


"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."


After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.


Berg was a small-business owner from the Philadelphia suburbs, his family said Tuesday.


Berg's family said they knew their son had been decapitated, but didn't know the details of the killing. When told of the video by an Associated Press reporter, Berg's father, Michael, and his two siblings hugged and cried.


"I knew he was decapitated before. That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public," Michael Berg said.


The video tape included a statement by one of the executioners:


"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused."


"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."


The video bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American." It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi — a lieutenant of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) — was shown in the video, or was claiming responsibility for ordering the execution.


The Web site on which the video was posted is known as a clearing house for al-Qaida and Islamic extremist groups' statements and tapes.


The family of Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., said they were informed by the U.S. State Department on Monday that Berg was found dead near a highway overpass in Baghdad.


Berg's mother, Suzanne Berg, said her son was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. He had been missing since April 9, she said.


"He had this idea that he could help rebuild the infrastructure," she said.


The U.S. military Tuesday said an American civilian was found dead in Baghdad, but did not release his identity. State Department spokeswoman Susan Pittman said she couldn't release the name of the dead American, but said she not aware of more than one civilian found dead in recent days.


The military said there were signs of trauma to the body. Suzanne Berg said she was told her son's death was violent but did not want to discuss details.


Berg, who was in Baghdad from late December to Feb. 1, returned to Iraq in March. He didn't find any work and planned again to return home on March 30, but his daily communications home stopped on March 24. He later told his parents he was jailed by Iraqi officials at a checkpoint in Mosul.

"He was arrested and held without due process," his father, Michael Berg, told the Daily Local News of West Chester recently. "By the time he got out the whole area was inflamed with violence.

The FBI (news - web sites) on March 31 interviewed Berg's parents in West Chester. Jerri Williams, a spokeswoman for the Philadelphia FBI office, told The Philadelphia Inquirer the agency had been "asked to interview the parents regarding Mr. Berg's purpose in Iraq."

On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated.

The Bergs last heard from their son April 9, when he said he would come home by way of Jordan, Turkey or Kuwait. But by then, hostilities in Iraq had escalated.

Suzanne Berg on Tuesday said she was told her son's body would be transported to Kuwait and then to Dover, Del. She said the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was but that federal officials had not been helpful.

"I went through this with them for weeks," she said. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself."


Now, why I should care about the "abuse" of EPOWs?
 
"why we should care about the so-called abuses?"

I share the sentiment. But the reality forces a little skewed view. The war front in Iraq is a psychological war. We need to drain the swamp that feeds the terrorists.

afterall, we could just bomb the whole place if pacification or revenge is what we wanted. But the war is one for the hearts of the population. The war is at its feverish pitch now because we are denting the support for :expletive: the terrorist cowards who hide behind their religion.

I need to calm my anger. Because those sob's will get whats coming to them eventually, in a karmic way. I need to have a clear mind to help speed that process. Boy are they going to need our compassion later...:fire:
 
If we cannot recognize that there are tremendous cultural differences within Iraqi society and with ours we will never, ever come anywhere near a "peace."

Would you accept this behavior from American civilian Correctional Officers in the CONUS?

What does the phrase "The High Road" mean?
 
I think maybe you are confusing some of our comments here. No one here is advacating the rape and abuse of Iraqi women.

I think we all are finding it hard to feel sorry for a women that had to remove her hat. Just because they think they need a hat on does not mean that they should be able to wear a hat in prison. Maybe the disrobing thing was ordered so they would take a shower?? Who knows. If they are getting raped then something needs to be done, if they just feel sorry for themselves because they are locked up and have to live by our rules not islamic rules then I find it hard to care too much.
 
Would you accept this behavior from American civilian Correctional Officers in the CONUS?

Are American women prisoners required to take off their hat? Scarf? Disrobe for search/shower?

Uh, YES.

The rape thing obviously is disgusting and, if true, the perps must be prosecuted.

Again, these women did not end up in the prison because of selling knock-offs of Girl Scout cookies.
 
Are American women prisoners required to take off their hat? Scarf? Disrobe for search/shower?

Uh, YES.
But ... in CONUS female prisoners/inmates are not required to disrobe in front of male police or correctional officers. In fact, male officers are not allowed to frisk female suspects. I know you know this.

And a facial scarf to an American woman does not have the religious/cultural significance it does to a Muslim.

Again, these women did not end up in the prison because of selling knock-offs of Girl Scout cookies.
If you'll go back and read the thread again, you'll possibly notice that some of them are there only because of their husbands' positions in the Baathe party. That does not strike me as a wonderful justification for violating religious and cultural taboos that put the women in danger of losing their lives. And, by the way ... those comments are quite accurate. That's the way they do it, and while I don't agree with it or condone it, as my Zen teacher used to say, "What is ... is." We need to recognize it, accept it, and deal with it.
 
Lessee

Removing a scarf, sawing off an American's head.

Removing a scarf, hanging the decapited and emoliated bodies of 4 Americans off a bridge.

Removing a scarf, gang-raping PFC Lynch.

Removing a scarf, Daniel Pearl.

Now, why should I care about "cultural differences"?

And, personally, I could care less about the whole "hearts and minds" thing. That's great if you want to hold hands, play nice, and listen to Kumbya for hours on end. Either we let our military do its job, which is the destruction of our enemies, or we get the hell out.
 
Hawkmoon,

Please do not lecture me on the subtelties of Arab culture. Been there and done that. They have no right not to be offended.

I do not know why they are in prison and I do not care. Do we need more micromanagement from the Senate Select Committee on Sticking Their Nose In Every Nook and Cranny so We can Get A Soundbite?

But ... in CONUS female prisoners/inmates are not required to disrobe in front of male police or correctional officers. In fact, male officers are not allowed to frisk female suspects. I know you know this.

Well, bubba, we ain't in CONUS no more. Depends on who is available and if there are any female MPs. This is Baghdad not Mayberry RFD.

That said, I think we should consider accommodating the disrobing issue, where possible, and where the safety of our troops is not threatened.

Then again, maybe we should just pack up and leave so no one gets offended.
 
Look, you cannot have it both ways. If you claim that you are better than your enemy, whatever the cause or justification, you darn well better follow through and act like it. For a group that typically invokes "rights" we are quick to do so conditionally. This is not the way to win a war. If you want to disregard the rules, "they" will too. If they disregard the rules and we choose to follow, we are no better than them. Frankly, if we want to torture and murder, fine, but lets not get all hypocritical about it.

We can win, or we can subjugate. But I thought we went there to free the Iraqis from subjugation.
 
ojibweindian
Do you have proof that the women in question participated in any of those events? If not, then you're supporting the punishment of those who are indirectly related to an event. McVeigh had militia connections, so I suppose the U.S. should treat militias as enemy organizations.

7.62FullMetalJacket
Please do not lecture me on the subtelties of Arab culture. Been there and done that. They have no right not to be offended.
I do not know why they are in prison and I do not care. Do we need more micromanagement from the Senate Select Committee on Sticking Their Nose In Every Nook and Cranny so We can Get A Soundbite?
They have every right to be offended. Nine women were interviewed and four of them were never charged with any crime. Here's a simple litmus test if one of the women was your mother, would you be upset?

Are we in Iraq as liberators or conquerors, it's looking more and more like the latter.
 
We tried liberation, and that is apparently failing. Next up! Conquering.

I swear, this country has the political will of Al Gore combined with Woody Allen. A limp dishrag with no spine.

We are becoming yellow with fear and loathing.
 
Are we in Iraq as liberators or conquerors, it's looking more and more like the latter.

Hopefully as conquerors that will leave as soon as we destroy our enemy.

Do you have proof that the women in question participated in any of those events?

My point is that libs get all bent out of shape if a scarf is removed, and the beheading, and rape of our countrymen and women get comparatively scant attention.

If you want to make a big deal out of the mistreatment of EPOWs while ignoring the brutal murder of our American men and women, go ahead. Those of us that pay attention will know where your allegiances lie, and will not forget.
 
ojibweindian
If you want to make a big deal out of the mistreatment of EPOWs while ignoring the brutal murder of our American men and women, go ahead. Those of us that pay attention will know where your allegiances lie, and will not forget.
I'm not ignoring the killing of an American, but unlike others I'm not using it as an excuse to justify the mistreatment of prisoners (some of whom have been jailed without reason). Furthermore, some people have taken the stance that the people in question were not POWs, they were simply prisoners. If all the prisoners do indeed have POW status, then a war crimes tribunal should try these soldiers because numerous articles of the Geneva Convention were violated.

Those of us that pay attention will know where your allegiances lie, and will not forget.
Sounds an awful lot like McCarthyism to me.
 
I'm not ignoring the killing of an American, but unlike others I'm not using it as an excuse to justify the mistreatment of prisoners

What you are doing is equivocating the MISTREATMENT of EPOWs and the slow, brutal, BEHEADING of a fellow AMERICAN. Would you rather be rolling around naked on the floor with several other men, or have your head slowly sawed off while video-tape records your every scream for your parents to eventually see.

Was the treatment of EPOWs wrong? Sure it was. Is it nearly as bad as what happened to Nick Berg? Not even close.

So why do you seem to be more outraged at the treatment of EPOWs?

Sounds an awful lot like McCarthyism to me.

Sure does. So what.
 
So why do you seem to be more outraged at the treatment of EPOWs?
Simple answer: Because the terrorists who killed Berg acted the way they always do, the way they tell us they will act, and the way we expect them to act.

The Americans in the prison did NOT act the way we say Americans act, or the way we've been led to believe Americans should act.

I would have zero hesitation to pull the trigger if I had those terrorists in the crosshairs. They are scumvermin.

That in no way equates to a moral justification for mistreatment of prisoners rounded up in random sweeps, or put in prison solely as a way of applying pressure on their spouses to spill the beans.

It's becoming evident to this newbie that The High Road apparently ends at the coastline of CONUS. That's rather disappointing.
 
Sorry to hear of your disappointment.

Personally, I'm rather enraged that others here appear to be more upset at the mistreatment of EPOWs than the brutal murder of one of their own countrymen.
 
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