Privacy of Concealed Carry information

[DaisyCutter]

This is a great topic.

Just another thing I'd like to note. The digital age has enabled cops enormously.

Imagine pulling up on a motorist propositioning a streetwalker 20 years ago. How could you PROVE it without a confession? You couldn't. You could articulate the area they were in, the dress, etc, but that's not proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Fast forward to today, I go on backpage or craigslist and I find her addy for sex, arrest both parties and attach a copy of the sex advertisement to my report. Slam dunk.

I'd even go so far to say that there is more information available publicly, if you know how to search, then on police databases. I use google maps, facebook, craigslist, public court records, etc. routinely, with great success.

You can even search for outstanding arrest warrants, puiblicly, online. In fact, in my area the public search is BETTER than the police search (which is outdated). I still need to confirm the warrant through the police database, but for finding warrants I use the public database.

This is public: http://www.mcso.org/TechnoCops/Default.aspx

The police version is old school non-graphical user interface.

 

[230therapy]

Permits to carry a concealed handgun are court issued documents in my state--which means they're public documents.

 

[lemaymiami]

A few remarks about police officer certification are in order to clear up some of the questions posted here. Each state has it's own "police officer standards and training" records (and most all pretty closely follow national accreditation standards). In every state that I know of those P.O.S.T. records are centrally maintained by each state and the standards are also linked into their various police academy training routines and standards. That basic certification is the standard all must meet to be hired by any agency as an officer and that same basic certification is what can be revoked for cause
if brought to their attention. That means that even if an outfit wanted to keep a bad cop on the job the state has the ability to revoke their certification... As far as equipment, particularly firearms - that's a matter for each agency to keep track of. Some departments are fairly liberal as to what officers can carry on the job... others are so specific that only one or two weapons are authorized (and very carefully listed by make, model, caliber, etc.). I would be very surprised if an agency didn't carefully record every weapon that one of their officers carried while on the job, along with all their training and qualification records (particularly weapons qualifications) from day one and maintain them long after the officer was no longer in their employ. Training and qualification issues are very important if someone goes after them legally.

As far as records go each state handles those kinds of things separately. In the state I'm most familiar with, Florida, there's an open records law that makes almost every government record an open record... with very, very few exemptions (one of them involves on-going criminal investigations, but that's another topic entirely). I believe California treats public records entirely differently (at least former officer records from there that I've seen). In civil cases I'm familiar with one of the first things a civil attorney will request will be the officer's training records, along with their personnel jacket. If the agency balks or tries to avoid compliance they'll be looking at a court order very quickly.... If something sensational has occurred the lawyer're request will be after the newspapers - they'll be at the agency before the sun goes down the day they find out about anything controversial involving a specific cop (ask me how I know..).

I know that any armed citizen will have RKBA questions when stopped by an officer. The fact is that the officer probably has more rules and restrictions to comply with than any citizen will ever face. I operate with the assumption that privacy in our modern world is a lost cause, and conduct myself accordingly. There are times when I certainly won't volunteer information, but I make a careful point not to lie to anyone that carries a badge. That sort of stuff has bad consequences.

 

[rmodel65]

I would expect that each county has an online database of the CCW holders. I would also expect that each officer has the web address & password.

Failing that, any cop could simply whip out his cell phone and call the dispatcher for the relevant county in your state, 24/7/365 and have that dispatcher tell him the CCW status... any second of any day of the year.

I could do that from my patrol car in Phoenix.

I tell the dispatcher in Georgia my name/SN and she calls my dispatcher and verifies my name/SN... and in about 5 minutes I've got the goods. She can email the records to me and I can view them instantly on my smart phone. Then I print the records out and attach them to my report as evidence.


This is 2011, not 1991.

sure isnt...only way youre gonna get any info on a GA permit is to call the judge who issued it during business hours...ga also doesnt issue a CCW it issues a GWCL or Georgia Weapons Carry License and is for carrying weapons in general openly or concealed. and yes this is 2011 and how it works

 

[janedoedad]

I would expect that each county has an online database of the CCW holders. I would also expect that each officer has the web address & password. Incorrect, there is no database for GWL holders. There is no state requirement for such.

Failing that, any cop could simply whip out his cell phone and call the dispatcher for the relevant county in your state, 24/7/365 and have that dispatcher tell him the CCW status... any second of any day of the year. Incorrect again, calls would be to the issuing Probate Court during business hours

I could do that from my patrol car in Phoenix. You can try.

I tell the dispatcher in Georgia my name/SN and she calls my dispatcher and verifies my name/SN... and in about 5 minutes I've got the goods. She can email the records to me and I can view them instantly on my smart phone. Then I print the records out and attach them to my report as evidence. No, once again this information is obtained from the Probate Court not from Dispatch.

This is 2011, not 1991. And this is Georgia, we like it this way.

http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=63959&p=876661#p876661

 

[4thPointOfContact]

I would expect that each county has an online database of the CCW holders. I would also expect that each officer has the web address & password.

Failing that, any cop could simply whip out his cell phone and call the dispatcher for the relevant county in your state, 24/7/365 and have that dispatcher tell him the CCW status... any second of any day of the year.

I could do that from my patrol car in Phoenix.

I tell the dispatcher in Georgia my name/SN and she calls my dispatcher and verifies my name/SN... and in about 5 minutes I've got the goods. She can email the records to me and I can view them instantly on my smart phone. Then I print the records out and attach them to my report as evidence.

This is 2011, not 1991.

I'll be your huckleberry.

Tell you what, here's my Georgia Weapon's License, call dispatch at (770) 781-2222/3087 (non-emergency number) and then tell us what street the license holder lives on. The only access to that file number is going to be the Clerk of the Probate Court, please remember to call during normal business hours.


I suspect that lacking a reasonable suspicion to seize my person, you won't be told anything, by anybody, at any time.

 

[DaisyCutter]

Whitebb stated the local police could look them up. In AZ, I'd have the same ability as any Officer/Deputy in Forsyth County.

Additionally, I'm not going to utilize resources available to me for the performance of my duties to win an internet debate. I signed documents stating I wouldn't do that, and many of them included the phrase, "up to and including termination".


Why don't you prove your resolve BY stealing from your boss, OR misusing assets available to you through your job? Silly right?



Where there is a will, there is a way:

Every county in AZ has a court that runs 24 hours, which provides the constitutionally guaranteed "initial appearance within 24 hours" to arrestees.

The "IA" court judge is the one who signs warrants for police at 0200 hours on Sunday. No doubt the Forsyth County sitting IA Judge would be able to access the CCW database and verify, if I asked nicely. In all likelyhood, his "JA" or judges assistent (the person who schedules everything) would be able to do it without even distracting the judge. That is how I'd verify Forstyh County CCW status.


Would I go to this trouble of calling the IA court and having the JA verify CCW status in the course of a typical traffic stop? Probably not, if I sensed the driver was honest.

I can ask the driver 9 questions I already know the answers to, and slip in the unknown question along the way. If the driver is truthful 9 of 9, I'll likely accept the 10th answer at face value. If the driver is truthful 3 of 9, then I'd be inclined to verify.


Police are tested daily. It's commonplace for people to try to "roadblock" an officer's investigation. Only one person gets to fool/trick a good officer each way before the officer wises up to that tactic. The second person to try it shouldn't have success.

I compare it to playing checkers or chess.

Let's say that we're both identically gifted in wits and strategy. The first time I play a suspect in "checkers", it's a crapshoot who's going to win. But from that day forward, I play 10 games of checkers every day. Some I win, and some I lose. But I almost never lose the same way twice. The average driver (or suspect or ?), on the other hand, he only practices his game once every 5 years... when I pull him over. In that 5 years, my game has grown a lot. Take a genuine bad guy, one who gets contacted by police weekly. His game will be somewhere in the middle.


The first time I run across a GA CCW, I may get stumped. By the second time, I'd have my plan figured out.

Frankly, once I got a valid DL record, and matched the info & physical descriptions on the DL record against the CCW card, I'd be inclined to take the GA CCW at face value. I may google "Georgia CCW" and view some images to make sure the card you showed me vaguely resembles what is issued. Beyond that, unless you were involved in a shoot or weapon misconduct investigation I wouldn't care to know more. I'd probably turn my attention to more deserving genuine criminals.


4thPOC, jog more bro.

 

[gearchecker]

No lectures on my driving habits are needed. I've already been told to slow down more than once.

My Concealed Pistol License has the same ID number as my Idaho DL. Needless to say the DL and CPL are connected. My DL is also connected to my license plate number.

In the past I've been pulled over in Idaho, Washington State, and Montana for excessive speed (NO LECTURES are necessary).
At every stop the first question asked of me is "Do you have any loaded firearms in the vehicle?" If I said yes, the LEO's asked where it was, and not much of anything else. The WA state trooper asked me why I was carrying it and I gave her an acceptable answer so there was never any issue with me having it in my possession. I've never been asked to hand over my pistol to any of them, or show it to them. As long as it's holstered or secured they have nothing to be alarmed about.
I was never issued any citations for the speed, but I always received a polite warning about it.
Whenever I'm stopped I always plant my hands on the steering wheel, passengers put their hands on the dash or seat back depending on where they are in the vehicle. One of the LEO's thanked us for the way we handled the situation.

They're doing their job, it's ours to always let them know we aren't a threat at any level.

Be safe and courteous.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

Whitebb stated the local police could look them up. In AZ, I'd have the same ability as any Officer/Deputy in Forsyth County.

Which is to say ... umm.... none, unless you call the Clerk of Probate Court during business hours. Don't believe it? Break out the nation-wide calling minutes and call the number to find out. Just ask the dispatcher if he Can access a database with that street name if he had to. Even better, ask to speak with SGT Weeks or LT Maloney at the same x2222 and ask him if the deputies can do so. If they can't answer to your satisfaction, PM me and I'll give you CPT Freeman's cell phone number. Helping others is never too much of a burden.

Additionally, I'm not going to utilize resources available to me for the performance of my duties to win an internet debate. I signed documents stating I wouldn't do that, and many of them included the phrase, "up to and including termination".

You said you could do it on your cellphone, my apologies if you don't have a personal cell and depend on a department issued one. They're quite inexpensive these days, I hear. It's not a violation of any department rules if you ask if something Can be done, is it?

The "IA" court judge is the one who signs warrants for police at 0200 hours on Sunday. No doubt the Forsyth County sitting IA Judge would be able to access the CCW database and verify, if I asked nicely.

You can ask the answering machine as nicely as you like, but at 0200hrs not even a promise of flowers and chocolates is going to get you a "happy ending". Judge Judy can't access a database that doesn't exist.' Call the Clerk of the Probate Court during business hours.

In all likelyhood, his "JA" or judges assistant (the person who schedules everything) would be able to do it without even distracting the judge. That is how I'd verify Forstyh County CCW status.

Then you wouldn't be able to verify a thing. Call the Clerk of the Probate Court during business hours... ad nauseum.

Would I go to this trouble of calling the IA court and having the JA verify CCW status in the course of a typical traffic stop? Probably not, if I sensed the driver was honest.

I can ask the driver 9 questions I already know the answers to, and slip in the unknown question along the way. If the driver is truthful 9 of 9, I'll likely accept the 10th answer at face value. If the driver is truthful 3 of 9, then I'd be inclined to verify.

Traffic stop? When did the OP mention a traffic stop?

Ok, change the ground rules, since the original weren't to your satisfaction. Let's pretend it's a traffic stop, and I present my weapons license by the side of the road at 0200. Who are you going to call again?

Outside of a traffic stop, your chances of seeing my driving license are infinitesimally small unless you're I'm cashing a check with you, buying alcohol from you, or riding on your airline. My driving license stays in my car, where I have it when I'm driving. Now, if you want to give me a ride to my car we can talk, otherwise ....No.
You can ask for my license, you can ask me if my favorite color is blue, you can ask if I want to go to a hotel and rub shaving cream over each other.... it ain' a happenin'.

The first time I run across a GA CCW, I may get stumped. By the second time, I'd have my plan figured out.

Well, this is a fine opportunity to improve your skills and get ahead of the game for you, isn't it?
Why don't you take a few days and cogitate on it. Let us know what ya come up with. If you wait till your second encounter then you're behind the power curve.

Frankly, once I got a valid DL record, and matched the info & physical descriptions on the DL record against the CCW card, I'd be inclined to take the GA CCW at face value. I may google "Georgia CCW" and view some images to make sure the card you showed me vaguely resembles what is issued. Beyond that, unless you were involved in a shoot or weapon misconduct investigation I wouldn't care to know more. I'd probably turn my attention to more deserving genuine criminals.

As stated, outside of a traffic stop, you're not seeing my driving license.
Yeah, it 'vaguely resembles' a valid GWL, I guess. Of course, since it's a folded sheet of typing paper laminated with a machine from Office Despot*, it's not exactly rocket science to make one.
Um, wait.. you're going to match the DL against the CCW card?
And if I'm not driving (which means I don't have my driving license with me) and I'm openly carrying (which means I don't require a license to do so in Aridzona) just what are you going to match with which?

4thPOC, jog more bro.

- quoted for truth, lol. At least you got one part right.
* I should really trademark that name.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

Should you not yet be disabused of the notion that there is any sort of "CCW" database for Georgia citizens that you or any other LEO can access from the side of the road, I welcome you to contact Georgia Packing where more than a few lawyers, officers and even the odd Georgia Sheriff will be more than happy to lend you their wisdom.

[edit:] When I say 'odd' I mean it in the sense that we don't have many, not in the sense that he's addled. I drive through his county too many times to Ever say that.

It occurs to me to wonder; should Daisy Cutter perform a traffic stop on my vehicle whilst traveling the highways and byways of the Great State of Arizona and finds me in possession of a concealed weapon and a license that looks like it was drawn in Crayola crayon, has a picture of Daffy Duck, is signed by Adolf Hitler, expired 5 years ago, and was supposedly issued in New Yawk Sitty where even Jesus and the Apostles couldn't qualify for a pistol license .....

..... just what Arizona statute does that give reasonable suspicion that have I violated considering that both open and concealed carry are legal in Arizona.

 

[rmodel65]

Daisy Cutter you will never come across a GA CCW because we dont have one....

 

[Wolfebyte]

Privacy of Concealed Carry information
Does LE information, driver's license, registration, database link to CCW information?

It seems to me this would have important privacy implications.

Anyone know if information on these two lists is combined?

In Texas, short answer is NO.

Long answer, there is a database that officers can query to see if you have a CHL, but your CHL is NOT connected to your Driver's License.

Texas CHL information is held in the TCIC database,.. This prevents your Texas DL from displaying the CHL information when the card is swiped at DL/Magnetic strip readers (used in clubs, stores, etc to determine you are 18 or 21)

Out of state police can not access the Texas Conceal Handgun License database unless their agency runs a specific format in NLETS (CWQ).

 

[Owen Sparks]

Like another member once said:

"The best way to carry is without a permit. If they know you have it it is not concealed."

Good thing my state does not require me to have one to keep a firearm in my car. If some out of state cop runs my licence it will come up "clean".

 

[4thPointOfContact]

Like another member once said:

"The best way to carry is without a permit. If they know you have it it is not concealed."

Good thing my state does not require me to have one to keep a firearm in my car. If some out of state cop runs my licence it will come up "clean".

Unless you've just committed a traffic infraction, and we know you'd never knowingly do that, how's he going to run your license?

 

[brickeyee]

Like another member once said:

"The best way to carry is without a permit. If they know you have it it is not concealed."

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308

§ 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

Go ahead and give that a try in Virginia.

You WILL take the ride.

 

[Neverwinter]

Unless you've just committed a traffic infraction, and we know you'd never knowingly do that, how's he going to run your license?

You don't have to have committed a traffic violation to be stopped under the guise of one. If I were stopped for a traffic violation while knowing I hadn't committed one, I would be even more protective of the knowledge of whether or not I was carrying.

 

[4thPointOfContact]

True, you can be stopped in under the guise of for "suspicion of having committed murder" without there being any evidence at all to substantiate such a claim. I try to operate under the theory that law enforcement officers are acting legally and legitimately though.

The point was, however, that outside of a vehicle stop, the chances of an officer being able to see my license was infinitesimal. I can't produce what I don't have in my possession.