.Scarecrow.
Member
I live in Michigan and was wondering if I can sell an AR stripped lower to a friend who wants to build one. It's coming off my rifle and I'm going to get a different one for myself.
Then please provide legal authority supporting that contention.pjeski said:A stripped lower is not considered a pistol in MI (for the moment).
Now that's a fine and appropriate response to the OP's question. It's certainly a more appropriate response than what you said in post 3.pjeski said:What the OP should do is ask the question on the legal beagle section of the MGO forum. There an attorney familiar with MI gun law will likely answer.
As far as me providing a cite that a stripped lower is not a pistol, how is that possible? There is no law that says specifically that a receiver is not a pistol. There is also no law that says that it isn't. I can't cite what doesn't exist.
Here is the relevant law:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(yv...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-222
Problem being the definition of a firearm now includes "readily converted to", but that is not defined. So you could say that any part of a gun is a firearm. But you know that is not what the law means.
Thank you Mr Ettin.Then please provide legal authority supporting that contention.
If the OP were to rely on your statement and you're wrong, both he and the buyer could be committing a crime under Michigan law.
Telling someone that something is legal is a very serious matter. If you're wrong, and if he relies on you, he could be getting himself into a lot of trouble.
And you know this how?USAF_Vet said:A stripped lower doesn't require anything to transfer. A stripped lower, or a complete lower, both transfer as a "firearm" from an FFL, and there is nothing in Michigan state law that requires an RI-060 or Purchase Permit for a stripped lower via private sales.
I know this based on a history of purchasing and transferring AR stripped and completed lowers via various FFL's. None have transferred as a handgun. Michigan state law is quite precise when it defines what is a handgun, and what is not a handgun. A stripped, or complete, receiver does not meet the definition.
So it's not an assumption, because the receiver fails to meet the definition of a handgun, it does not transfer as a handgun, nor is it registered in the handgun database (unless built as a handgun). It would no more transfer as a handgun than a stripped Mossberg 500 receiver would.
I confirmed this again last week. I'm putting together a group buy of stripped receivers. Talking to an FFL, who is also a state trooper, about how best to acquire, and individually transfer each receiver to each purchaser. He said it's easier, and cheapest, for one person to have all the receivers transferred to them, on one 4473, with one NICS check (or not, based on CPL status), and have that individual divy them out to each purchaser. He confirmed no additional paperwork would be necessary. I can have him cite the exact codified law as a source if that would help. But then again, it may not even be in codified law, just like Open Carry in Michigan. It's legal because no law exists making it illegal.
If no law specifically covers something and makes the action illegal, by default it is legal, yes?
This stripped receiver is a "rifle" right now. If it was never a "pistol" "first", shouldn't it always be a rifle now?.Scarecrow. I live in Michigan and was wondering if I can sell an AR stripped lower to a friend who wants to build one. It's coming off my rifle and I'm going to get a different one for myself.
Wasn't there a person (LEO) who was arrested for a "straw purchase" when he purchased a Glock for his uncle with money his uncle gave him before the purchase? If everyone gives their money to one person for the group buy and only one transfer on paper takes place, isn't that the same?I confirmed this again last week. I'm putting together a group buy of stripped receivers. Talking to an FFL, who is also a state trooper, about how best to acquire, and individually transfer each receiver to each purchaser. He said it's easier, and cheapest, for one person to have all the receivers transferred to them, on one 4473, with one NICS check (or not, based on CPL status), and have that individual divy them out to each purchaser. He confirmed no additional paperwork would be necessary. I can have him cite the exact codified law as a source if that would help. But then again, it may not even be in codified law, just like Open Carry in Michigan. It's legal because no law exists making it illegal.
I'm putting together a group buy of stripped receivers. Talking to an FFL, who is also a state trooper, about how best to acquire, and individually transfer each receiver to each purchaser. He said it's easier, and cheapest, for one person to have all the receivers transferred to them, on one 4473, with one NICS check (or not, based on CPL status), and have that individual divy them out to each purchaser.
MCL 750.222 said:(f) "Pistol" means a loaded or unloaded firearm that is 26 inches or less in length, or a loaded or unloaded firearm that by its construction and appearance conceals itself as a firearm.
While it certainly can't shoot in it's stripped state, what does "readily be converted" specifically mean? I couldn't find any Michigan precedent in a quick search.MCL 750.222 said:(e) "Firearm" means any weapon which will, is designed to, or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by action of an explosive.
Emphasis mine. That clause is notably missing in Michigan's law.18 USC 921 said:(3) The term “firearm” means (A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
I have two questions,This stripped receiver is a "rifle" right now. If it was never a "pistol" "first", shouldn't it always be a rifle now?
I know this based on a history of purchasing and transferring AR stripped and completed lowers via various FFL's. None have transferred as a handgun. Michigan state law is quite precise when it defines what is a handgun, and what is not a handgun. A stripped, or complete, receiver does not meet the definition.
So it's not an assumption, because the receiver fails to meet the definition of a handgun, it does not transfer as a handgun, nor is it registered in the handgun database (unless built as a handgun). It would no more transfer as a handgun than a stripped Mossberg 500 receiver would.
I confirmed this again last week. I'm putting together a group buy of stripped receivers. Talking to an FFL, who is also a state trooper, about how best to acquire, and individually transfer each receiver to each purchaser. He said it's easier, and cheapest, for one person to have all the receivers transferred to them, on one 4473, with one NICS check (or not, based on CPL status), and have that individual divy them out to each purchaser. He confirmed no additional paperwork would be necessary. I can have him cite the exact codified law as a source if that would help. But then again, it may not even be in codified law, just like Open Carry in Michigan. It's legal because no law exists making it illegal.
If no law specifically covers something and makes the action illegal, by default it is legal, yes?
Wow!USAF_Vet said:...I'm putting together a group buy of stripped receivers. Talking to an FFL, who is also a state trooper, about how best to acquire, and individually transfer each receiver to each purchaser. He said it's easier, and cheapest, for one person to have all the receivers transferred to them, on one 4473, with one NICS check (or not, based on CPL status), and have that individual divy them out to each purchaser. He confirmed no additional paperwork would be necessary.....
(a) Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.
(b) Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal.
Yes.kanook said:...Wasn't there a person (LEO) who was arrested for a "straw purchase" when he purchased a Glock for his uncle with money his uncle gave him before the purchase? ...