Pro-Gun Gun Companies?

[GunnySkox]

Howdy, all,

My previous idea, of creating a list of "BUY/DON'T BUY" companies based on their performance in relation to RKBA having been discovered as essentially pointless, what shall follow is a profile of the pluses and minuses (politically speaking) of various gun manufacturers and/or distributers. Please contribute and I'll update the list accordingly.

Barret

PRO: Staunch defense of RKBA, Barret refuses to sell or service in places that ban .50's.​

CON:​

Bushmaster

PRO: Produces EBRs for the general public at reasonable prices, with all the evil features.​

CON: "Sold out" to moneygrubbing Beltway Sniper victims, possibly to avoid being sunk by ridiculous lawsuits (a dubious "con" at best)​

Colt

PRO:​

CON: does not appear (from their website) to sell EBRs to the general public anymore, pistol sales status unknown​

Fabrique Nationale

PRO: continuing to create, manufacture, and market politically incorrect firearms for civilian consumption.​

CON:​

Ruger

PRO: continues to create pistols and revolvers that cater to the CCW and big-bore revolver market, respectively; high quality arms and full-capacity pistol magazines still marketed.​

CON: major progenitor of the magazine capacity requirement of the AWB, refuses to sell full-capacity rifle magazines to civilians, "no honest man needs more than 15 rounds..."​

H&K

PRO: at least tried to make EBRs of the SL8 and USC, continues to manufacture and import high-quality pistols with standard-capacity magazines​

CON: so far refusing to manufacture EBRs or other in-demand products in their new plant in Georgia (from hkpro.com's forums, IIRC)​

Please help me make this list longer and more accurate
~Slam_Fire

 

[jefnvk]

I think you are going to be hard pressed to find anymore BUY lists, and will find that between everyone, just about every company will end up on the DON'T BUY list for some reason or another.

To me, the fact that they are still making guns means that they are probably pro-gun.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Ruger - practically invented the mag-cap in the AWB...

True.

...refuses to sell factory full-capacity magazines to lowly citizens.

False.
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAAccFACat?group=9

 

[AmericanPatriot]

hi everyone, I'm new here and this is my first post.

Slam_Fire, how about Bushmaster for your "Buy" list?

 

[PromptCritical]

Matt Payne:

I'll believe that when I see thirty round factory Mini-14 mags for twenty bucks.

 

[GunnySkox]

Aye, Matt. I'd forgotten that they still sell 15-round mags for their autopistols, but what really hacks me off is that all they sell to us untrustworthy civvies is 5-round rifle magazines. I'll put Ruger on my buy list when they formally apologize for the AWB and offer 20 and 30 round factory magazines for sale to non-LEOs.

~Slam_Fire

 

[TechBrute]

Note: "A company has to think of its bottom line" is not an acceptable reason for a company to disregard their civilian customers.

Why not? You'd rather a company just close their doors than solely provide product to the Military? Based on your reasoning, they should have all shut down during 1994-2004, since they couldn't produce a RKBA-approved product.

H&K - unnecessarily neutered the SL-8 and the USC, refusal to make new G3/HK33/etc. pattern rifles for civilian market, refusal (AFAIK) to market full-capacity magazines to the unwashed public

First of all, HK needed to neuter the SL8 and USC so that it could get around our @#$%@#^@ "sporting purposes" BS. Also, HK does sell new G3 pattern rifles to the civilian market. It's called the HK91. Our @#$@%^ import laws restrict its import, not HK. Basically, HK would have to open a plant inside the US to sell those uber-cool black weapons that you want so badly. I've heard they've considered it, but it hasn't happened at this point.

 

[GunnySkox]

"Why not? You'd rather a company just close their doors than solely provide product to the Military?"

I can understand if a company provides product to the military and has to, say, slow down or even stop production of stuff for civilians because the military contracts are more important, because the military needs it more and it needs it right now, but to utterly disregard their civilian customer base, to look down their nose at civilian customers like "I don't need you, you should be glad I'm making products for you at all" (I get that vibe from H&K) is what pisses me off. If Ronnie Barret came on the.. uh.. PA.. of the internet and said he couldn't ship anyone in the US a rifle for a month or two because he had to build a jillion of them for the army, I bet nobody would mind, but conversely, if he just up and decided to not sell .50's anymore at all because he could do just fine with the military contracts, that'd piss me off.

"First of all, HK neede to nueter the SL8 and USC so that it could get around our --- "sporting purposes" BS. Also, HK does sell new G3 pattern rifles to the civilian market. It's called the HK91. Our --- import laws restrict its import, not HK. Basically, HK would have to open a plant inside the US to sell those uber-cool black weapons that you want so badly. I've heard they've considered it, but it hasn't happened at this point."

They're building a plant in Georgia as we speak so they can make the P2000 (or whichever) for the Homeland Security Department, and they've already said that they weren't going to make any of their EBRs here, so we're still SoL. I didn't know that they had to neuter the SL-8 and USC for import.

~Slam_Fire

 

[TechBrute]

Buy:

S&W for coming out with the largest production handgun, a new iteration of the 1911, and releasing more new revolvers for the civvie market.

Bushmaster for making black rifles.

Springfield Armory for coming out with more versions of the M14/M1A.

Don't Buy:

S&W for selling out to Brady.

Bushmaster for selling out to the DC Sniper victims.

Springfield Armory for offshoring much of its production.

 

[TechBrute]

but to utterly disregard their civilian customer base, to look down their nose at civilian customers like "I don't need you, you should be glad I'm making products for you at all" (I get that vibe from H&K) is what pisses me off.

Can you expand on where you get that "vibe"?

For one thing, HK doesn't need their civilian customer base. The money that they make off their military contract is probably more than 90% of their business. They are running their company like a business. If you owned a business, you'd know that 5% of your customers cause 95% of your problems. We are that 5% for those companies that have military contracts.

Basically, I think coming up with a BUY list is a valid excercise, and I would probably try to support those companies.

However, I think your DON'T BUY list is useless, as most gun companies can be put on it for one reason or another. After all, THEY ARE BUSINESSES!!!!! They DO have to be concerned about the bottom dollar. And quite frankly, the owner of XYZ company has an obligation to their employees to do what's neccesary to keep their doors open, too. They really have NO obligation to the citizens of America. Of course the flip-side is that we have no obligation to them, either.

 

[GunnySkox]

How'd S&W and Bushmaster sell out? And though you could certainly boycott SA for not building their rifles here, they haven't done anything despicable with regards to RKBA, AFAIK.

The reason I posted this thread was to compile information on companies that don't respect the RKBA of the average citizen. We're quick to boycott Applebee's when they so much as think about banning CCW in their stores, but when Ruger sells out to the legislature so their rifle gets exempted from the AWB, people still buy Blackhawks and Mini-14s and 10/22s and all that jazz. I want to know what companies I can trust to be on my side when push comes to shove, and if that means maybe not having the coolest pistol on the block, or the newest, shiniest EBR, I can live with that, so long as the companies know why they haven't got my money.

~Slam_Fire

 

[TechBrute]

The reason I posted this thread was to compile information on companies that don't respect the RKBA of the average citizen. We're quick to boycott Applebee's when they so much as think about banning CCW in their stores, but when Ruger sells out to the legislature so their rifle gets exempted from the AWB, people still buy Blackhawks and Mini-14s and 10/22s and all that jazz. I want to know what companies I can trust to be on my side when push comes to shove, and if that means maybe not having the coolest pistol on the block, or the newest, shiniest EBR, I can live with that, so long as the companies know why they haven't got my money.

I think it's a great idea, but everyone's going to have reasons to put any company on both lists.

You really don't know about S&W's sellout?

Bushmaster paid out millions of dollars to the DC victims.

Buy:

Colt - continues to sell high-quality rifles to civvies DISPITE repeated and continuous political pressure to cease. Their military contracts have been threatened by @#$%^@^s in congress, and yet they still sell to civilians. Cancelling the contracts would literally shut the doors overnight.

Ruger - Just released a new slim-frame .45acp geared toward the CCW market. See article in May SWAT (I think it was May.)

 

[GunnySkox]

"However, I think your DON'T BUY list is useless, as most gun companies can be put on it for one reason or another."

I'll grant that. Maybe a better solution is just to make company "profiles" detailing points in their favor and points against, and let people decide if a company is worth their dime, politically.

"After all, THEY ARE BUSINESSES!!!!! They DO have to be concerned about the bottom dollar."

They do, certainly, but they can do it without just disregarding their civilian customers.

"They really have NO obligation to the citizens of America. Of course the flip-side is that we have no obligation to them, either."

Thank Adam Smith for Capitalism!

Actually, I think the company I only really have a big beef with is Ruger, and the rest of the stuff on the don't buy list ATM is based on just various stories I've been told and half-remembered half-truths.

~Slam_Fire

 

[GunnySkox]

"You really don't know about S&W's sellout?"

Nuh-uh. I haven't been a gunnie for very long, and I've been active in the.. uh.. discussion for only about six to eight months, now.

"Bushmaster paid out millions of dollars to the DC victims."

Either that or get raped to death with lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit from lawsharks out to get their piece of the floundering gun company. I can accept that.

Colt - continues to sell high-quality rifles to civvies DESPITE repeated and continuous political pressure to cease. Their military contracts have been threatened by @#$%^@^s in congress, and yet they still sell to civilians.

"Ruger - Just released a new slim-frame .45acp geared toward the CCW market. See article in May SWAT (I think it was May.)"

And still thinks that "No honest man needs more than 15 rounds in a magazine." Ruger can get the cancer and die, as far as I'm concerned (said the guy with a Mini-14 in his closet. Hey, I didn't know at the time, cut me some slack.)

I gotta hit it, though, I'm at school, so I'll pester you s'more when I get home, Techbrute.

~Slam_Fire

 

[TechBrute]

Actually, I think the company I only really have a big beef with is Ruger, and the rest of the stuff on the don't buy list ATM is based on just various stories I've been told and half-remembered half-truths.

I agree, however, I think that the company might be changing directions (albiet slowly) since the demise of the founder. You're probably familiar with his sayings like, "An honest man has no need for a gun smaller than a canned ham." Basically, the founder's flawed logic has embedded itself deeply within the company's being. The guns they are tooled up for, etc., all reflect Bill's thinking.

Hopefully, over the next 5 years we'll see a company more geared towards what America wants. Unlike Colt, they have no military contracts to speak of (that I'm aware of), and their LEO contracts are far behind that of Glock, S&W, and HK.

Maybe a better solution is just to make company "profiles" detailing points in their favor and points against, and let people decide if a company is worth their dime, politically.

I really, really, like that idea.

 

[TechBrute]

Ruger can get the cancer and die, as far as I'm concerned

He did. Well, the dying part, anyway.

 

[TechBrute]

I gotta hit it, though, I'm at school, so I'll pester you s'more when I get home, Techbrute.

Come pester me at the group shoots...

 

[Justin]

I didn't know that they had to neuter the SL-8 and USC for import.

Yes, they did. Even during the height of the 1994 AW Ban, domestic manufacturers were still allowed one more evil feature than foreign manufacturers. Even today, in order to import firearms from overseas they must conform to the idiotic and vague "sporting purposes" clause of the 1968 GCA as well as the 1988 import ban signed by George Bush senior. In fact, one of the selling points used to get the 1994 ban passed was that "we regulate firearms made overseas much more heavily than domestically produced ones! Won't someone think of the children and apply these rules to domestically made firearms as well?"

With the exception of the P7 I've found most HK products to be overpriced and overhyped, but they are hardly selling out RKBA by conforming to the laws.