Pro-gun ownership but not pro-NRA?

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non-partisan organization to become everything that is bad about the lobbying system in the USA.

How do you think the people make their voices known? Lobby's are primarily how that happens. The NRA IS the 2 million plus people it holds as members. That "Evil Lobby" is MY voice, and in a representative republic, that's how my representatives hear from me.

I do not agree with everything the NRA does, and they support certain initiatives that I find objectionable. For example, "let's enforce current laws" Well, no. Many of those laws are unconstitutional IMO. They also support mandatory minimum sentences, again, clearly a violation of seperation of powers & unconstitutional IMO.

That said, I am a member. And I contribute. I have several litmus tests for my candidates, and the RKBA is one of them.

I have the same issues with my own political party. I still contribute to them. Perfection is not something I will ever see in this life, so I am forced to support what is available & what has the greatest opportunity for success.
 
I'm a Democrat, moderately liberal, a member of the NRA and have given hundreds of dollars to the Foundation. I don't find it a conflict; I am a member of AARP, too, and I don't always agree with them, either.

Hmmmmmmmm, you DO realize that AARP is antigun, as are Liberals in general......so every dollar you send to the other groups needs twice as many just to break even??????

Of course, I would LOVE top see how a liberal, whose party is totally for gun control can say he is a member yet for gun ownership - there hasn't been a liberal yet that supports gun ownership.....so please enlighten me, because I truly do not get that at all.....

You can PM if necessary
 
I've lost any respect for the NRA. They've proven many times that they will compromise our inalienable rights. This excerpt from http://coloradoconservativeproject.blogspot.com/2007/06/nra-sells-out-again.html provides some examples.


"Of the major federal gun control legislation that controls/regulates firearms today, the NRA has openly or privately been involved in passing the legislation:

1934 National Firearms Act - Puts incredibly onerous restrictions on the purchase and possession of "machine guns", suppressors, etc. (which are now termed "NFA weapons"). The NRA actually wrote this legislation.

1968 Gun Control Act - Created the morass of paperwork a firearms purchaser must now undergo, as well as dug the ATF deeper into an area our constitution prohibited it from going. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3247 has quotes from NRA's own publication.

1986 McClure-Volkmer - Misnamed the "Firearms Owner Protection Act", this law stopped firearms manufacturers from transferring any fully auto weapons into citizens hands. To buy a machine gun in America (there are currently 366,000 legally owned select fire weapons in private citizens' hands in America), you must now pay a minimum of $10,000 (for an m-16), whereas previous to this supply limiting act you could buy one for $200. Again, this was an NRA-supported and created act.

1994 Brady Act - Some give Sarah Brady the credit, but they should chalk this Gun Owner Registration System to the NRA. http://www.rmgo.org/brady.shtml has a synopsis."
 
How do you think the people make their voices known? Lobby's are primarily how that happens. The NRA IS the 2 million plus people it holds as members. That "Evil Lobby" is MY voice, and in a representative republic, that's how my representatives hear from me.

This is an important point missed distressingly often by a lot of folks who cling to the romantic notion that a man's vote is his voice and that what we all do to sway our friends and neighbors, and to support the gun industry, makes far more difference for gun rights than what a bunch of "greedy, corrupt, high-powered lawyer-type" lobbyists do.

A perfect example:

When my state rep was up for re-election and stopped by to shake hands (a Democrat by the way) I invited him in and talked guns to him. My doctor is running for office (as a Democrat) and I talked to him at my last appointment. I, personally, gave them both food for thought regarding the ridiculous ban on concealed carry in Wisconsin during hours-long conversation.

I think the NRA is a waste of money in its current incarnation. Use that money to buy good American products from American manufacturers.

As I said before, if our lawyer/lobbyist sharks aren't shrewder, smarter, more connected, better paid, and more effective than the "other" guys' lawyers and lobbyists, then they will be eating us alive every single day and we'll never have a CLUE as to why or how we've lost.

Do all you can at the grass roots. But, we have powerful enemies with lots of money. We need the best defenders we can afford in DC.

IMHO, we couldn't LIVE in the political sphere without the NRA, and I'm also quite happy to have GOA, JFPO, 2AF, etc. in there nipping at the NRA's heels keeping them honest.

-Sam
 
Things I don't like about the NRA - mostly that they are too timid - See the Heller case - if the NRA had their way it wouldn't have gotten to the SCOTUS - as they tried to get the senate and house to overturn the DC ban (after the case was accepted but before it was heard) - and then also tried to tie it to another case where other issues of standing ect... could give the SCOTUS other grounds to dismiss or rule against the case rather than a decision on the second amendment. I don't believe this was because the NRA was working against our rights, rather I think they were afraid of the outcome and didn't want to gamble and possibly lose - I remember a conversation with an NRA member at an ISRA event some years ago where he flatly stated that he and some others in the NRA leadership were afraid of the possible downside of a pure 2nd amendment case and that they could lose it, and would not support bringing one until they felt certain of winning. I believe that was their intent of bring a possible 2nd amendment case, but with other factors to the court so the court could support the 2nd or have the wiggle room to avoid a out and out denial of the 2nd while declining to support it.

I hate politics, but that is the way the people in power play. I'm a life member of NRA and member of other progun organizations. The NRA still has my support and they are pursuing aggressive legal action in the wake of Heller, they also do more to suppport the shooting and hunting sports and keeping alive our firearm legacy, and promoting CCW laws than any other organzation. We need the NRA and the NRA needs us.

As for radicals or looneys running the organization, the NRA has elected leaders and board members - and as far as I can tell the leadership is more cautious and less headstrong than the majority of its members. The NRA supports politicians of both major parties. The NRA has been continually demonzied by the national MSM and liberal/progressive politicians and organizations - and thus they have to continually be concerned about being marginalized and the name of their organization becoming a pejorative - which of course is the goal of their enemies.

I live in Illinois and if you think the laws here are bad now, I can tell you from personal experience - interacting in springfield (the capital) with politicians progun and antigun, that we wouldn't have any gun rights, if it wasn't for the NRA & ISRA.

Lastly, for the original poster, do you support the NRA or think they are over the top is stating a strong opinion and I don't think it is unreasonable for people on a gun forum to question the basis of it. And as has been pointed out - everybody supports responsible gun ownership - or say they do - the NRA included - the devil is in the details.
 
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... I don't believe this was because the NRA was working against our rights, rather I think they were afraid of the outcome and didn't want to gamble and possibly lose...

Can you blame them, given the 5-4 vote on something that is so clearly an individual right based upon the Constitution and contemporary writings of its authors?

If Kennedy had gone the other way, we would be in a world of hurt right now re: RKBA. (Thank God he did not...)

As glad as I am with how it ended, there's no denying it was a high-stakes gamble.
 
[1] The NRA is the most effective RKBA organization. They have the largest membership of any of them, and they do the best that they can with that membership base. Politics is strictly a numbers game. If the NRA had more members, it could be that much more effective. And those folks who complain about the NRA's so called failures need to tell us who did, or could have, actually accomplished more. The NRA can not perform magic.

[2] Facts of political life -- politicians don't listen to individual voters and they don't listen to or care much about reason. They care about numbers. One hundred phone calls or letters in support of or against something are better than 10. Ten thousand would be a lot better yet. It doesn't matter what the caller or writer says is the reason to support or oppose the thing. All that matters is the number on each side of the question.

[3] An NRA with 4 million members gets attention. An NRA with 5 million will get more, and an NRA with 10 million members could get some real serious attention. As annoying as the NRA can be, it's in our interests to see it grow and prosper.

[4] Politicians aren't swayed by fine arguments, logical demonstrations or even facts. They are swayed by how many voters (and potential voters and contributors) line up on each side of the question. They are influenced by political and economic power.

[5] The NRA is at the forefront of shooter education and safety training. Their program for certifying instructors in a variety of disciplines helps make competent training more readily available to the public. And their "Refuse to be a Victim" program is excellent.
 
"Of the major federal gun control legislation that controls/regulates firearms today, the NRA has openly or privately been involved in passing the legislation:

I cringe every time I think of the deals with the devil that have been made over the years. 1934, 1968, 1986, 1994, etc. Lots of opportunities to do better or worse in influencing legislation.

But think carefully about this: The NRA is an organization of those of us who care enough to pay our dues and become active. The personality, social conscience, beliefs, and goals of that organization can only reflect those of their constituent members.

If you're really upset with the NRA because "they" helped draft the 1934 NFA... wow. What was the NRA in 1934? Was it (politically) ANYTHING like the legal powerhouse it is today? How many men(women?) who were even brand new members of the NRA in 1934 are even still on this side of the grass? How many generations of leadership have come and gone since that law was passed? Do you have any concept of who the citizens of this country (and the members of the NRA) WERE in 1934? What they cared about? Prohibiton had only ended the year before. He!!, WOMEN had only had the right to vote for 14 years (yeah...three whole presidential elections)!

Fast forward to 1968 and things aren't much different. The NRA was still not terribly focused on the political fight. There was little perceived need to be. After certain events on the national scene, misguided social pressure was applied to restrict firearms sales. The NRA got involved and helped craft the legislation. It sure sucks, but what were the alternatives? Do you know? Are you suggesting that the NRA came up with these restrictions on their own? Would you have preferred that the NRA refuse to participate in protest and (like 1980 olympic boycot) let the other side write the legislation?

How about 1986? FOPA did a lot of good things (attempted to reform the ATF's contemptable enforcement practices, prohibited registry of Title I firearms, enacted the safe passage legislation -- which is HUGE) some controvercial things (enumerating who could be denied purcase due to criminal history, etc.), and one really bad thing -- the Hughs Amendment, which was tacked on at the last minute by a NJ Democrat Representative, and which closed the registry. If it wasn't for that last part, we'd generally treasure GCA '86 for the good things it did!

And the same stuff applies to the 1994 Brady Act.

If the NRA had come out in 1934 with a no-compromises stance, they'd have been marginalized and lauged at. In 1968, the same thing would have happened. Gun rights zealots look at history and say "How could you let these things happen, you traitors!" (as though the NRA thought up the whole idea of 2nd Amendment infringement) instead of realizing that the NRA has to represent its membership -- that its policies and goals change over time as those of its membership develop -- and as this very thread has shown half of the time the NRA is dragging 2/3s of those members kicking and screaming to a tougher stance in the fight against gun control!

Are they as aggressive as GOA or JFPO? Absolutely not. And the memberhsip of GOA and JFPO doesn't contain the 2 or 3 million (out of a total of 4.5 million or so) members who think "these NRA guys are over the top!" They don't represent those 100s of thousands who are ashamed to be associated with that bunch of hard-core extremists who want folks to carry guns in public. They don't have to listen to the Zumbos and the fudds who write letters to Chris and Wayne asking them to shut up about evil black rifles and only protect good ol' hunting guns. Or those who feel that we SHOULD perhaps have to pass tests to own guns or pay high fees so undesirable people can't buy guns.

When you're a huge organization like NRA, you're going to have a diverse support base. And, if you can't read between the lines, a great deal of the articles in American Rifleman and ...Hunter are a kind of advertising to the membership, trying to explain to those 4 million average Joes WHY NRA is taking such a hard-line stance all the time. I'd wager the NRA spends MORE to educate their own membership about legislation and the RKBA fight than they do on lobbying.

But, yeah, I can't support that bunch of extremist gun rights whackos -- making trouble and pushing that pro-killing-machine agenda, 'cause they're always compromizing with the anti-gunners and giving away our rights!

Sheesh. :rolleyes: I'll bet a lot of days those boys go home after hearing flack from both sides and wonder why they bother!

-Sam
 
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fellow Forum members may find this hard to believe but one of my sisters lives in the Wash DC area. she's not anti-hunting likely due to the many meals my dad and I provided with our firearms (I still bring her venison from time to time) but is anti CCW and 'evil black rifles'. refuses to consider haveing a firearm of any sort, she lives in a 'gated community' near Leesburg, Va.
one of her gal-pals is the ex-wife of Wayne LaPierre and wow you oughta hear them cut loose on Wayne! says he's the biggest a**hole on earth!
myself I'm an NRA member as well as other RKBA organisations. IMO it's absolutely neccesarry for our freedoms.
 
one of her gal-pals is the ex-wife of Wayne LaPierre and wow you oughta hear them cut loose on Wayne! says he's the biggest a**hole on earth!

An ex-wife who thinks her former husband is a a**hole? Say it ain't SO! :D

I haven't met Wayne, but I did know Chris Cox (NRA-ILA Executive Director) for a couple of years and he's a very down-to-earth, friendly guy -- who's still happy to be preaching the gun-rights line even over beers after a long day in the trenches in DC.

-Sam
 
Which gun rights organization is hated and vilified the most by anti-gun groups?

The NRA.

That should tell you something right there.
 
Sam1911...

post #159 was one of the best i've read in the many, many train-wreck NRA threads i've followed in the past few years on THR. thank you!



ETA: my ex-wife probably hates me almost as much as i do her. that's why we're no longer married. it's not real hard to understand.
 
Texas B., sorry if I run a little long, but it gets so old to see other gun folks beating the same tired drum about how the NRA has "compromised" too many times and "can't be trusted" and is "out for their own good" and on, and on...

These folks apparantly believe that the NRA has CHOSEN to take a compromise route every time. CHOSEN to give our rights away instead of smashing all who would dare to infringe! As though the organization has that kind of power -- but witholds it and allows laws to be passed for it's own nefarious purposes!

The patient wakes up after the operation and the Surgeon says, "You were going to die. We had to compromise and take your leg to remove the cancer, but you're going to live to fight another day." And the patient sues the Dr. because he chose to take the patient's leg and compromise with the disease!

Doesn't make any sense and shows a tremendous misunderstanding of life and political power in a representative democratic republic.

I could go further and say it shows an irrational belief in the all-powerful ability of one small element of society to stonewall the wishes (however misguided) of the populace, as voiced by their representatives.

Or, even, that it displays an alarming paranoia that believes the NRA is somehow in cahoots with the halls of power to hold down the rights of the citizens while milking the populace for money and power.

But, really, it probably is simply a cry of frustration that things aren't the way we think they should be and a child-like wish for a powerful "someone" to fix our problems for us. (Preferably, without a lot of effort or pain on our part.)

-Sam
 
Hardshell, then by your logic I SHOULD have voted for Obama or arguably Hillary. Again, if one is compelled to donate, there ARE alternatives.
 
All I have to say is this: mljdeckard said more to convince me to join the NRA in 11 words than most of you have managed in pages of vitriol-fueled spew. I signed up yesterday after thinking about his post.
 
In posts 162 and 167, Sam effectively destroys the NRA detractors' positions.

Not to mention offering the reasons why to belong--

Thank you, Sam1911.

Jim H.
 
I support the NRA

Every gun owner should be an NRA member. We would have so much more influence over politicians. Gun owners who don't join are not pulling their weight in the fight. Non member gun owners are just freeloading off of NRA members. I believe we could not own guns if not for the NRA.
 
holy hell, do you guys really have that much time to sit there and type all that crap? how do you know this guy isn't just sitting back and laughing at your asses. Focus that energy somewhere else!
 
holy hell, do you guys really have that much time to sit there and type all that crap?
When I stopped paying ANY attention to sports twenty five years ago, I discovered I suddenly had a LOT of time for worthwhile activities, such as refuting nitwit anti-gunners.
 
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