Problem with California FFL Transfer

[mbcris]

I live in Oregon and have agreed to sell a Sig 716 to a friend in Southern California.

Because the firearm as assembled (ambi magazine release) is not legal in California, I disassembled everything and recently shipped the parts (except the Lower Receiver) directly to the buyer while we were awaiting some answers as to the legality of this particular Lower Receiver in California.

I shipped the stripped Lower Receiver to his designated FFL on December 19.

Upon receipt, the FFL left me a message that he had "a <deleted> load of questions" and you've probably heard this before...that he could only receive firearms from out of state FFL's and required a CA DOJ CFLC Firearms Shipment Approval Number.

He told the buyer I needed to get a letter from my local FFL with a CFLC Firearms Shipment Approval Number and an affidavit of shipment. There wasn't a chance this was going to happen. My local FFL is legit and this was a legal transfer.

I didn't believe his assertion to be true and did my own research. From the California DOJ web site CFLC FAQ #2 (http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcfaqs#2) reads as follows:

Question: I am not an FFL but I want to ship a firearm to a California FFL. Do I have to obtain a Firearms Shipment Approval number before shipping a firearm to California?

Answer: No. Only shipments from Federal Firearms Licensees (FFL) require a Firearms Shipment Approval number.

I brought this to the attention of the FFL...and he was enraged (that I called him on the law). He went into a rant...I don't know the law...he does. The call abruptly ends...he hangs up. It seems that's his MO when he's challenged because that wouldn't be the last time he hangs up the phone.

I talked with him again later that evening. I told him I was reading FAQ #2 (above) directly from the CA DOJ web site and asked what I was missing. Glancing over my question, he claimed he couldn't accept the firearm because he's licensed as a pawn broker. I didn't see how that was relevant as he was being engaged as an FFL. He further asserted I was running afoul of the California Business and Professions Code because I was an out of state resident and didn't possess a business license. What a load of horse <deleted>. So every eBay and Craigslist seller is required to get a business license in order to sell goods into California? Really? Pull my other finger. And how is an FFL tasked with enforcing the California B&P code? He continues...none of this matters because he's already called the DOJ (to CYA) and DESTROYED the firearm. WHAT? I asked if he was serious. I told him if that was the case, I feel compelled to reach out to the DOJ and ATF and perhaps put this in front of a judge (small claims).

And let me say, I'm sugarcoating the tone of the conversation...I've never met anyone in the gun business that exuded this much <deleted>ry.

What do I do now? He's refusing to send me the lower or the pieces (if it's actually been destroyed). He won't send me anything in writing including an affidavit of destruction and hasn't referenced his authority in law to destroy the firearm.

I recognize if there are any costs to be recovered, this becomes a civil matter.

However, here's my biggest concern...he has my firearm (regardless of its condition/disposition) in his possession with a serial number registered in my name. At what point is this considered a stolen weapon?

Any suggestions on how I should proceed are appreciated.

 

[lilguy]

Do you have any record that this transfer took place? Any way you're probably out the receiver so file a stole firearms report with what ever department of California government handles gun laws. If you are correct on the law, your gun has been stolen.

 

[dogtown tom]

Your friend picked that dealer.......its your friends problem now.

Nearly every week I'll get in a gun and have never had contact with the shipper or buyer. They just find my name on the internet and think its okeydokey to just ship it.

That's never a good idea as you and your friend have discovered. Some dealers as a business policy choose not to accept firearm shipments from nonlicensees.

 

[ChaoSS]

You sent him the receiver, do you have any proof of doing this? If so, I'd contact the ATF and report it.

California dealers can be difficult to deal with, we have so many laws that not even our dealers can keep up with everything. Every single issue which is complicated when you are dealing with federal law becomes ten times worse when you deal with California law also.

As we all know, too many gun dealers don't know the laws nearly as well as they should. When you add in the extra complexities of California law, this creates problems. When you add in the bad attitude that some gun dealers seem to have, this creates bigger problems.

For future issues, go through a local ffl. They will have it recorded that you gave them the gun, then sent it out, and though I'm not sure what records they are required to keep, a good business owner will probably have the records from the shipper, along with tracking numbers. Once it's left, it's no longer your concern, at least from the perspective of "my registered gun out there".

Also, it may be advisable to attempt to carry out future conversations with this individual via email or through written mail. Any written acknowledgement from him that he took your gun in could help you out.


In the mean time, perhaps your buyer might be able to get his hands on a new lower? I'm not the biggest expert on AR lowers but it is still a pretty universal lower, right? Just not the same as for something chambered in 5.56/.223? I'm assuming this guy already has to be buying a new mag lock/release, as well as new magazines for this gun anyway, so I'm sure he could get his hands on a receiver from a decent FFL. He'll probably want the money taken off his purchase price, but you can add that to the lawsuit.

 

[mbcris]

Do you have any record that this transfer took place? Any way you're probably out the receiver so file a stole firearms report with what ever department of California government handles gun laws. If you are correct on the law, your gun has been stolen.

I don't know how the FFL handled receipt of the lower and whether it was entered in his book. He most certainly did not transfer the gun to the buyer.

 

[mbcris]

Your friend picked that dealer.......its your friends problem now.

Nearly every week I'll get in a gun and have never had contact with the shipper or buyer. They just find my name on the internet and think its okeydokey to just ship it.

That's never a good idea as you and your friend have discovered. Some dealers as a business policy choose not to accept firearm shipments from nonlicensees.

This wasn't a random choice of FFL's. My friend was a student in his handgun safety course (required for a CCW). This FFL was well aware this lower was on its way.

 

[Willie Sutton]

It's your friends problem, not yours.

Cash his check and let him worry about his FFL choices.


Willie

.

 

[mbcris]

You sent him the receiver, do you have any proof of doing this? If so, I'd contact the ATF and report it.

California dealers can be difficult to deal with, we have so many laws that not even our dealers can keep up with everything. Every single issue which is complicated when you are dealing with federal law becomes ten times worse when you deal with California law also.

As we all know, too many gun dealers don't know the laws nearly as well as they should. When you add in the extra complexities of California law, this creates problems. When you add in the bad attitude that some gun dealers seem to have, this creates bigger problems.

For future issues, go through a local ffl. They will have it recorded that you gave them the gun, then sent it out, and though I'm not sure what records they are required to keep, a good business owner will probably have the records from the shipper, along with tracking numbers. Once it's left, it's no longer your concern, at least from the perspective of "my registered gun out there".

Also, it may be advisable to attempt to carry out future conversations with this individual via email or through written mail. Any written acknowledgement from him that he took your gun in could help you out.


In the mean time, perhaps your buyer might be able to get his hands on a new lower? I'm not the biggest expert on AR lowers but it is still a pretty universal lower, right? Just not the same as for something chambered in 5.56/.223? I'm assuming this guy already has to be buying a new mag lock/release, as well as new magazines for this gun anyway, so I'm sure he could get his hands on a receiver from a decent FFL. He'll probably want the money taken off his purchase price, but you can add that to the lawsuit.

I shipped this via UPS through my account so I have a copy of the label and all the tracking info.

This FFL is the most arrogant prick I've ever encountered. There's no negotiating or proposing a rational solution. He was under no obligation to perform the transfer. The simple solution would have been for him to send it back to my local FFL.

So here's my takeaway. Communicate with the receiving FFL in writing (e-mail) that he knows the gun is coming and that he approves of the shipment whether or not it's coming from me or my local FFL.

As for getting a new Sig 716 lower. We're looking into it. I've been told the Sig 716 upper doesn't work on the standard AR-10 lower.

 

[mbcris]

It's your friends problem, not yours.

Cash his check and let him worry about his FFL choices.


Willie

.

I agree.

My concern is that this FFL has a gun registered in my name.

If I can't get him to send me the pieces or an affidavit of destruction, I'm inclined to report it as stolen so that I'm off the hook.

I can't imagine it's a good idea for an FFL to be in possession of stolen weapon.

 

[lawson4]

Hoe can you report it as stolen? You sent it to him. The fact that he won't sell it to your friend does not make it stolen.

Rick

 

[BSA1]

+1 on letting your friend deal with it.

Your friend is local so he can visit the dealer and pursue the matter in whatever manner is warranted.

 

[mbcris]

Hoe can you report it as stolen? You sent it to him. The fact that he won't sell it to your friend does not make it stolen.

Rick

He's refusing to return the firearm or its pieces (as the case may be) to me or my local FFL. An FFL can't just claim ownership of a gun.

 

[lilguy]

Both folks in this discussion feel they are right on the law, with opposing posostions. I woulld immediately report it stolen to get its loss reported.
If someone who's got my car won't give it back I'd report it stolen.

 

[col.lemat]

A few years ago I had nearly the same trouble except I was not paid. After months I turned it in as lost/stolen to the local sheriff's dept. I found out that they had the P38 pistol and were holding it. The buying party a neighbor friend finely did pay for the pistol, but I wanted it back if possible. I took about a year of jumping through all the hoops and the dealings with the California DOJ who I found out had a do not destroy hold on the pistol because of it's WW2 historical value. I had to turn it in first as a stolen weapon. Found out that it had been registered two different times in 1947 & 1952. I was sweating them wanting me to get a release from the last known registered owner from 1950 but they did not. Once I got the pistol back I returned the money to the neighbor, and we are still good friends. The Sheriff Dept. had test fired the pistol and cleaned it before returning it to me. They ran the bullet through The state crime lab to see if it match any unsolved crimes.
1) You need to get paid first always.
2) turn it in as stolen weapon to your local law enforcement as well as the one your friend is in.
3) provide a written explanation as to what occurred to his and your local law enforcement.
4) once you find out the true disposition and location of the weapon, if it still exists it will cost a $20 money order and properly filled out release form sent to Ca. DOJ to retrieve it.
5) it would not hurt for your friend to submit a stolen report from his end with a letter of explanation also.
Good luck

 

[dogtown tom]

Only an idiot would report it as stolen......it wasn't.
Doing so is filing a false police report and that is a crime itself.
Again, DO NOT file a stolen firearm report and other forum members should cease offering that as advice.

In regards to the alleged or threatened destruction of the firearm:
The best thing to do is have YOUR FRIEND, not you, contact the local ATF office and fill them in. Send a Cliffs notes version of your phone calls to your friend with any email correspondence along with all information on the shipment . He should tell ATF the timeline of when the firearm was received, dealers have until close of business the next day to record the acquisition of a firearm. If the dealer has not done so ATF would be very interested.

In addition your friend should immediately contact the California Dept of Justice's Bureau of Firearms to inform them of this dealers complete and total ignorance of California law.

 

[mbcris]

Only an idiot would report it as stolen......it wasn't.
Doing so is filing a false police report and that is a crime itself.
Again, DO NOT file a stolen firearm report and other forum members should cease offering that as advice.

In regards to the alleged or threatened destruction of the firearm:
The best thing to do is have YOUR FRIEND, not you, contact the local ATF office and fill them in. Send a Cliffs notes version of your phone calls to your friend with any email correspondence along with all information on the shipment . He should tell ATF the timeline of when the firearm was received, dealers have until close of business the next day to record the acquisition of a firearm. If the dealer has not done so ATF would be very interested.

In addition your friend should immediately contact the California Dept of Justice's Bureau of Firearms to inform them of this dealers complete and total ignorance of California law.

Tom, would you be comfortable if an FFL just kept your gun? No explanation. No compensation. How is that not the definition of stealing?

I appreciate your input.

 

[col.lemat]

Dog town Thank for the compliment of calling me an idiot! That was the nicest thing anyone has said me all day.

 

[col.lemat]

Dog town this is not Texas. Maybe you, yourself do things different in Texas. Personally I don't give a rets azz, but bottom line is that is how I did it and I have all of the Sheriff's reports and my pistol back. What the OP does and how he gets it back is his business. I offered my advice and what worked for me. He can take it or leave it for what it is worth. As for you, well you sure are high road now aren't you.

 

[danez71]

1st.... What has your friend/buyer done so far? Anything?


From the OP:

He continues...none of this matters because he's already called the DOJ (to CYA) and DESTROYED the firearm. WHAT? I asked if he was serious. I told him if that was the case, I feel compelled to reach out to the DOJ and ATF........

Assuming the friend/buyer has had similar conversations with the FFL....that's what your friend should do and that will include you at some point early on.


Literally calling the police and saying "I'm reporting a stolen gun" would be pretty dumb.


The call would be something like: I need your help DOJ....I bought a legit gun from friend in WA. Receiving FFL says he's destroyed it and supposedly called the DOJ to CYA his butt. However, he wont give me any documentation and I'm worried he possibly lost the gun and it could fall into the wrong hands.

 

[mbcris]

Here's the FFL's response to an e-mail I sent yesterday...

"Your information dealing with the gun control act of 1968 and California State law is lacking. The firearm was shipped lacking proper information per federal law. You also fail to understand that the only CA lisc, second hand dealers can only accept no FFL guns, they need to retain them for 30 days pending CA approval on the item. I'm not a second hand dealer.

Legally there is no firearm anymore. Per ATF and CA-DOJ it was destroyed. Go ahead and declare it as stolen."

 

[Double_J]

You and your friend need to contact the ATF and CA officials and a California. Licensed attorney. This FFL,seems to be acting strangely. Let him deal with the ATF and the state as far as compliance, and the attorney for failure to notify/return the receiver to you as he could not sell it.

 

[danez71]

Here's the FFL's response to an e-mail I sent yesterday...

"Your information dealing with the gun control act of 1968 and California State law is lacking. The firearm was shipped lacking proper information per federal law. You also fail to understand that the only CA lisc, second hand dealers can only accept no FFL guns, they need to retain them for 30 days pending CA approval on the item. I'm not a second hand dealer.

Legally there is no firearm anymore. Per ATF and CA-DOJ it was destroyed. Go ahead and declare it as stolen."

I don't know anything about that lower 716 and I'm assuming what you and the buyer/friend were attempting to do was legal. Having said that....


I'd still like to know what the buyer/friend has done so far with the FFL?

Refer back to my post above.

I seriously doubt he'd be required by law to destroy that 'gun' and being in CA there would some paperwork filed (kind of like the opposite of the CA DROS paperwork) for people to file when they no longer are in possession of a gun in CA; particularly since he's a FFL

For ex; this CA 'No Longer in Possession' form actually has an option box to check for guns that were "verified destroyed".

http://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/BOF4546NLIP0209.pdf


What has the friend/buyer done so far....?

 

[Frank Ettin]

It looks like this situation has no simple fix. Filing false police reports is generally a bad idea. And what we really have is a civil dispute among the OP, the FFL and (perhaps) the guy who wanted to buy the gun.

First, it appears to me that the OP and/or his friend have a legitimate claim against the FFL. The FFL appears to have acted on a gross misunderstanding of federal and/or California law and destroyed property which did not belong to him.

The problem is that not the police, California DOJ, nor the ATF are likely to be willing to sort this out for the OP and his friend. It's a civil matter and would require a lawsuit. And that would involve time and money. Maybe it could be handled in Small Claims Court, but (1) that still involves time; and (2) IME Small Claims Court is not a good place to deal with complex and technical matters of law.

But in any case, this is nothing we'll be able to help the OP fix. If he, or his friend, want to pursue this he needs a live lawyer -- not a bunch of anonymous denizens of cyberspace.

The moral, unfortunately, is to work out all the details ahead of time, and in writing, with the transfer FFL.

 

[mbogo]

He cannot keep it (it would be an unlawful conversion). Have your friend contact an attorney to send him a letter to either release it in accordance with California and Federal laws or to return to the sender.

mbogo

 

[mbcris]

I believe this may be the crux of the matter...

I gather from what you're implying is you are not a state licensed "second hand dealer" and that in the state of California, only a "second hand dealer" can accept firearms from nonlicensees? What section/paragraph of law restricts FFL's that are not licensed as second hand dealers from accepting firearms from nonlicensees?

In summary...what you're saying is that even though you're licensed as an FFL to receive and transfer firearms received from another FFL, state law restricts you from receiving and transferring a firearm that comes from a nonlicensee unless you are licensed as a "second hand dealer"? Is this an accurate assessment?

Furthermore, if you are able to demonstrate this is the law, why wasn't this disclosed to the buyer? You certainly knew he wasn't buying a firearm from a dealer, no? And is this the "law" you're hanging your hat on to justify destruction of the Firearm?