Problem With Winchester .380 Brass

[Gearhead Jim]

Recently I started reloading .380 practice ammo for my Glock 42, on my Dillon 650. Previously I've loaded a fair amount of 9mm and .38 Special over the years.

Over the last year, I built up a stash of 380 brass that is mostly once-fired (by me) Winchester, with a moderate amount of mixed other brands.

I did my load development with the mixed brass, everything went fine, and now am starting to go into "production".

Today I loaded just one box using the Winchester brass, with the same bullets (Extreme 100 gr FP plated) and primers (WSP). And out of the 50 rds, 8 had high primers. Even though there had been no high primers on the other mixed brass, I though I'd just gotten lazy on the handle and was not seating the primers fully in the Winchester cases. But I pulled the bullets/powder from those 8 rds, and tried to reseat the primers to proper depth. Not a single one of them got even flush with the casehead. So apparently, 16% of my Winchester cases have primer pockets that are too shallow, I can't imagine there could be that much residue or debris in the pockets after just one firing.

I wonder how Winchester managed to seat the original primers at the factory? I never noticed any crushed primers when using the factory loads, but wasn't really looking for them.

Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[Boho]

Win brass has the dirtiest primer pockets of all the brass I've ever collected. It is the brass I use most on my 650 for loading 380 & 9mm. I've never had the experience you are but I ultrasonic clean my brass until the primer pockets are clean. IME Win range brass has to stay in the cleaner longer than the other head stamps.

 

[ljnowell]

I shoot at the Olin/Winchester handgun facility in Alton IL weekly. I acquire quite a bit of brass from there. I can say without doubt that the 38 brass I collect from there has the tightest primer pockets of any other brass.

 

[gamestalker]

I notice that they are sometimes really tight, but I've never had a problem getting them properly seated. Personally, I really like Winchester handgun brass.

But I also prime with an RCBS priming die (On the press), which allows me to seat any primer as deep as I want. And I've never experienced a misfire either, so there is no way I'm crushing them into a shallow pocket.

I don't know what to tell you, except to seat primers like you mean it.

GS

 

[ljnowell]

I notice that they are sometimes really tight, but I've never had a problem getting them properly seated. Personally, I really like Winchester handgun brass.



But I also prime with an RCBS priming die (On the press), which allows me to seat any primer as deep as I want. And I've never experienced a misfire either, so there is no way I'm crushing them into a shallow pocket.



I don't know what to tell you, except to seat primers like you mean it.



GS

Winchester handgun brass is really good stuff as far as longevity. They don't split nearly as soon as federal or RP.

 

[larryh1108]

Is it possible you got some small rifle primers mixed in either by yourself or the factory? Maybe you can measure a primer that wouldn't seat against one that did?

 

[ljnowell]

Is it possible you got some small rifle primers mixed in either by yourself or the factory? Maybe you can measure a primer that wouldn't seat against one that did?

Small rifle and pistol should be the same size.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Thanks for the comments above. I too have had excellent results from Winchester brass over the years, until yesterday.

All of the primers came from the same box and appeared identical, so I don't think there are any rifle primers in there.
One time, I did try to seat some Winchester Large Rifle Primers in .45 ACP brass and they were a bit too large in diameter- didn't want to go in at all unless I forced them. The high primers in the Winchester .380 cases felt normal both for entering the pocket and for bottoming out, so I'm convinced it's the pockets and not the primers.

 

[joneb]

Make sure the pockets are clean and try some Federal F-100.
Did you measure the primer pocket depth? The pocket depth should be around .12"
I find seating Winchester primers in Winchester brass takes more effort.

 

[delrom418]

I recently primed 100 pieces of 7.62x54R in Winchester brass, and 100 pieces in PRVI brass. The PRVI primed great. Most (80%-90%) of the Winchester brass had high primers. I had to run them back through my hand primer and squeeze it "gorilla tight" to correct them!

 

[David4516]

I've had the same problem loading for .380 (and not just with Winchester brand brass).

All loaded rounds (even those with high primers) still worked OK in my .380 Makarov but they didn't work in my wife's Glock 42 (I think the G42 is very sensitive to primer depth changes)

To solve the problem I had to do two things. Step 1, clean primer pockets. I took the Lee primer pocket cleaner and put it in a cordless drill for extra power and speed.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/467111/lee-primer-pocket-cleaner

Step 2, used a press mounted priming tool for extra leverage (instead of my usual hand-held tool). Went with a Lee "Auto Prime II" and it works great (sadly Lee stopped selling them so if you want one you need to find it used someplace).

Using this method the wife's G42 is now 100% reliable.

Also don't know if this is of any use to you but it's favorite recipe so far is 3.2gr of bullseye with 100gr plated bullets.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

In all the thousands of mixed lot Winchester brass in .45 Auto, .38 Special and 9mm, with Winchester primers; I don't recall a single primer being difficult to seat except on military brass where the initial primers had been crimped in.

That's part of the reason I'm so annoyed.

I loaded another 25 this evening and leaned on the handle pretty firmly for priming, still got 3 with high primers. Better than before, but still pretty poor. It looks like I will need to visibly crush the primers a little to avoid getting high ones, just too-shallow Winchester pockets. Not sure if all this brass was from the same lot or not.

 

[LiveLife]

Dillon 650 ... 380 brass that is mostly once-fired (by me) Winchester, with a moderate amount of mixed other brands.

Today I loaded just one box using the Winchester brass ... out of the 50 rds, 8 had high primers. Even though there had been no high primers on the other mixed brass

... Has anyone else experienced this?

No. If you did not get any high primers and got 8 from same headstamp brass, I would closely inspect the primer pockets of those brass and clean/measure. Are you sure the primer depth adjustment on the 650 is proper or something's blocking?

I pulled the bullets/powder from those 8 rds, and tried to reseat the primers to proper depth. Not a single one of them got even flush with the casehead. So apparently, 16% of my Winchester cases have primer pockets that are too shallow, I can't imagine there could be that much residue or debris in the pockets after just one firing.

To verify whether the primer pockets are shallow, you would need to clean the pockets and measure using the tail end of the calipers.

I wonder how Winchester managed to seat the original primers at the factory?

Properly, to Winchester manufacturing specs.

 

[LiveLife]

Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9913547#post9913547

When I seat a primer I feel for the moment the primer bottoms out in the cup. They usually seat just a bit below flush.

The initial resistance you feel is the anvil feet hitting the bottom of the primer pocket. You should keep seating the primer until you feel the second lighter resistance which is anvil feet riding up the primer cup pushed by the bottom of pocket to set the anvil tip against the priming compound. I usually just give a firm push until the primers don't go any deeper. Properly seated primers are usually .004" below flush and I have even seated them to crush depth of .008" below flush with flattening of the cup and they still went bang- http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7810685#post7810685

Primer issue

Thanks for sharing the info about my primer issue. I ran all the.380 cases I had primed through my press a second time and really put some pressure on the ram to make sure they were seated as deep as I could get them ... it seems to be working fine now. I did notice a different strike mark on the primer.

WSP primers seated to .004" and .008" below flush

 

[Gearhead Jim]

I'd be ecstatic if I could get them that deep in my WW .380 cases, same primers/technique in Blazer Brass .380 cases seats the primer so deeply it actually looks a little too deep (but they fire ok). All of my other Winchester cases (.38 & 9mm) easily seat well below flush.

As mentioned in post #12, I gave a pretty hard push on the handle for each primer this last time, and still got 3 high ones out of 25. My 650 primer seater will go all the way to the bottom of the pocket if there's no primer, so it's not an adjustment issue.

I've got another 2k rds of unfired Winchester, hoping the pockets in those brass are proper depth.

 

[Blue68f100]

One thing to check is the primer pockets. I have found a lot of sloppy cut primer pockets recently with misc range brass. Some of the pockets are over cut at the top and some have a radius at the bottom. If it has a radius the primer will not fully seat due to the shorter length.

I have gotten into a habit of running ALL range brass through a uniformer for the primer pocket. I know it's a pain but you only have to do it once. It does make things run smoother when running on a AP.

 

[delrom418]

I'd be ecstatic if I could get them that deep in my WW .380 cases, same primers/technique in Blazer Brass .380 cases seats the primer so deeply it actually looks a little too deep (but they fire ok).

Yeah, I'd be ecstatic too if I could get them that deep. I clean my primer pockets when I process my brass, but with my 7.62x54R Winchester brass I'm just thankful to get them flush!

 

[Gearhead Jim]

My current plan for the WW .380 cases is to seat the primers very firmly.

The ones that are flush or below, I'll fire and recycle normally.

Ones that are seriously high, I'll pull the bullet and then throw the primed case in the plastic bottle of WD40 that I use to deactivate ammo and primers. Eventually, discarded.

The ones that are slightly high, I'll mark and see if they can be chambered from the pistol mag by hand, easing the slide closed to prevent slamfires. After one firing, they get discarded.

What a PITA. It's enough to make me buy a bunch of .380 Blazer Brass ammo or PMC for future reloading, relatively cheap and no problems with those pockets.

 

[GyMac]

I've had no problems with Win brass, or any other maker in .380. Primers are another matter though, although my favorite is Winchester. Tula, esp, gave me fits in .38 special.

 

[wlkjr]

I load on a Dillon 650 also and have not had any problems. If you'll send me some of the offenders, I'll try them on mine. What primers are you using? Could it be the brass is from the same lot?

 

[Gearhead Jim]

I don't think there is any problem with my machine or with the Winchester primers themselves- primers seat easily and to proper depth in all of the dozen or so other brands of mixed brass I have.

My hope is that I have one batch of "only" a thousand bad cases, and my other 3,000 rds of Winchester loaded ammo and fired brass, will be ok.

 

[murf]

Why don't you get out the calipers and measure the pocket depth (use the butt end of the caliper) on a few cases and compare?

murf

 

[Gearhead Jim]

I could do that, but how would it help me?

Regardless of the exact reason, I have WW cases that require excessive force to seat the primers to flush or slightly below, about a 16% rejection.
The same primers in any other brand of .380 case seat easily to the bottom of the pocket and are definitely below flush.

I'm not going to take the time to measure or clean or deepen the pockets, will just throw away the particular cases that cause the problem.

If I was carefully crafting hunting or accuracy loads, it would be different. But I'm simply trying to produce cheap .380 practice ammo at minimum cost and time.

 

[joneb]

I'm not going to take the time to measure or clean or deepen the pockets,

Then why did you waste our time with your question?

 

[LiveLife]