Problems with Universal Powder in .45acp

[greenlion]

I can't seem to find a load that works well in my GLOCK 21 using Hodgdon Universal powder. I've worked up good loads with it in 9mm, .40, and .38spl. I have found loads I really like in .45 with regular Clays powder, but the velocities are so low with that fast burning powder....

I tried the loads listed on the Hodgdon website using Universal, and they didn't eject well at all. Recoil seemed sluggish, even with the upper end loads. I checked my overall cartridge length, and increased the crimp a tiny bit (I can't crimp too hard because I'm using Berry's Plated 185gr) and it made no noticeable difference.

I thought I had the problem solved when I checked the same load in my Speer reloading manual, and found that their loads for the same bullet weight and powder BEGAN with Hodgdon's TOP charge weight, and went WAY up past that. When I tried those recipes, the ejection problem went away near the top end loads, but now, it has a LOT of flash and is throwing unburnt powder like confetti out of the barrel.

I've never had this much trouble finding a good load in 25 years of reloading. I've used unique in .45 occasionally, and don't remember having any trouble. universal and Unique have about the same burn rate, so I don't get it...

Help !

 

[mookiie]

Green - I use 5.9 grains of universal and 230 grn fmj bullets never had an issue. This load has worked great, but I do not have a glock.

 

[Josh45]

Some guns can be picky about the bullet itself or some can just outright hate the load. Since to low caused you problems and towards the top causes you problems yet still, I would have to say to change powders if you can. I like Universal, It gives me a decent load in 9mm. Haven't tried it in .40 yet.

My suggestion would be Bulls Eye, Unique ( as you mentioned ) or W-231.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Universal does not do well at lower pressures.

How about something in between like HP-38/W231?

 

[Blue68f100]

WST is a good choice. Works great the Berry's.

 

[joneb]

Could try AA#5

 

[Walkalong]

Universal should work just fine in .45 ACP. Sure of your charge weights.

WST is a good choice. Works great the Berry's.

Agreed, whether it's the 185 Gr HBRN, or the 185 Gr SWC.

 

[greenlion]

I use 5.9 grains of universal and 230 grn fmj bullets never had an issue.

I've had a couple of guys tell me they were having fairly good luck with Universal in .45, but all of you have said you were using 230 grain bullets. That might be a good hint about what I've got wrong. The lighter weight hollow-base 185 grain Berry's bullet I'm using may be lowering the pressure even more, and I know Universal works better in higher pressure 9mm and .40 loads.

 

[Walkalong]

The hollow base does increase case capacity, which lowers pressures slightly.

 

[BossHogg]

I e-mailed Berry's on that bullet and Universal Clays. They came back with a 6.9 at 851 fps to 7.7 991 fps, which is the same as Speer's 185 gr Gold Dot.They said use the oal the same as for the 230 gr bullet as it has the same profile. I finally settled on a light shooting load of 4.9 of Bullseye for my Glock-36.

 

[LiveLife]

I did see some muzzle flash and lower felt recoil when I tested different powders and I attribute that to some powder getting into the fairly large hollow base of the bullet and burning later like a tracer round. As others posted, this would decrease the amount of initial powder burn and chamber pressures created.

I had good results with W231/HP-38. It produces light recoil and accurate loads.

 

[REL1203]

I use alot of Universal in 40S&W and 9mm, but i never found it great in 45 either, get some w231 and load up some 45s

 

[Otto]

Universal does not do well at lower pressures.

That's been my experience.
And that's why it's "throwing unburnt powder like confetti out of the barrel"
I reserve Universal for 40S&W and nothing else.

 

[greenlion]

Yeah, thats why I hate to write it off though. It does so well in .38, 9mm, and .40. It would be convenient if I could use it in everything I shoot. A "One powder to rule them all" kinda thing...

Oh well. I may try some 231/HP-380 for the .45. It seems to be the default powder in .45 for those not using Clays or Unique. Clays is fantastic in .45, but it won't make major in IDPA. How does 231 work in .38, 9mm, and .40??

 

[LiveLife]

I really like W231/HP-38 for .38 Spl/9mm/40S&W also.

 

[Hondo 60]

A "One powder to rule them all" kinda thing...

Ya, sorry, but I've never had that kinda luck with any powder.
Tite Group works very well with 9, 38, 44spl & 45 ACP.
Not so great with .357, 44 mag & 45 Colt.

But even if you find another powder, a total of 2 powders is still a great deal.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm a little surprised you are having so much of a problem with Universal since it was developed to mimic Unique. /i think if you up the pressures it will help and it's possible Universal and those Berry's bullets just don't play well together.

That said, IMO W231/HP-38 and the .45 Auto are a match made in heaven. After trying a whole bunch of powders I always seem to come back to W231. I use it in my .38 Special, 9mm, .45 Auto and even .45 Colt ammo... It's just abut the perfect powder for most handgun calibers.

I see AA#5 mentioned above for the .45 Auto. That powder is also a good choice considering it was specifically developed for that caliber. Ramshot Zip is also a good choice...

 

[judgecrater]

I too have problems with lazy ejection with lower power loads in my Glock 21sf. I cured the problem by using slower powders like BlueDot and Unique. Even W231 with factory equivalent loads ejected brass erratically, sometimes into my face. The current Hodgdon 45 loads for Universal are rather weak. I see older data using hotter loads for Universal. The max of 5.4 for 230 grain bullets will not reliably eject in either my M&P or G21sf.
My next step with Universal is to push up past 5.4 carefully. 6.7 gr of Unique chronographed at 840 fps which is a nice factory equivalent.

 

[joneb]

Could try AA#5

And could try a firmer grip on the pistol ?
Maybe a weaker recoil spring ?

 

[noylj]

The only "universal" powder I have found is Unique. I can use it from .25 Auto to .45-70. It will not get full magnum velocity, but it is "frighteningly" accurate for a powder that meters and burns rather indifferently. If more people worried a bit less about a charge weight variation of +/- 0.2gn, they might find a powder that performs completely beyond their expectations.
Since I have never worried about a "dirty" powder, that has never been a consideration. As long as I only need to brush off the breech and feed ramp every 500 rounds or so, I am happy.
A few powders you might consider, if you want to test some others:
231/H38: a very good powder for title of Great General Purpose Powder for non-Magnums. It meters very well, burns well, does not show any pressure spikes as loads are worked up and is generally in the top three or five powders for any given cartridge. It is the most consistently accurate, over a range of bullet weights and charge weights, in my .45ACPs
AA2: a close runner-up to 231/HP38. It used to be my #1 choice for .45ACP and .38 Special, and still is for the .38. Again, no pressure spikes like many other fast powders with similar burn rates.
Solo 1000: a powder I have just begun testing. I am surprised how well-behaved it is, as it is a very fast burning powder. Shows some real promise in .45ACP. Looks to be a real winner in light .40S&W loads.
AA5: This is another powder that does many things well. However, it seems to be best at 25ksi and up, so hasn't been the best in .45ACP--but it isn't bad, either.
Unique: 5.0gn and 6.0gn seem to be "magic" loads in several cartridge/bullet weight combinations. This is true for 9x19, 9x21, .38 super, and .45ACP. Check you manuals.
For me, all I care about is accuracy. In my .45s, WST, WSF, TiteGroup, and other popular "action pistol" powders have been almost complete failures in the accuracy department. The best of the "popular" powders has been Clays, but it has a very pressure spiky temperament and in only accurate over about a 0.2gn range--too small and too inconsistent to be of any real promise. In fact. the range from start to max is too small for me to feel comfortable with.

 

[Josh45]

Oh well. I may try some 231/HP-380 for the .45. It seems to be the default powder in .45 for those not using Clays or Unique. Clays is fantastic in .45, but it won't make major in IDPA. How does 231 work in .38, 9mm, and .40??

For the .38 Spcl, W-231 is my go to powder using 125 Gr bullets so far. 4.1 Gr is my practice light load and 4.5 Gr is for a bit more kick and still controllable recoil. Then again this is a Ruger GP-100 357 Mag so it may differ for you but I have found this to be accurate for me. Haven't really tried it in the 9mm and I used it once or twice in the .40. Wasn't really impressed as we have been using Power Pistol a bit in .40 instead.

 

[joneb]

noylj I liked your post.
Regarding AA#5 though I have a few observations of my own. I first tried #5 around 10yrs ago it came from various places so its consistency was sometimes variable. I have read that #5 was developed for 45acp and with my experience #5 does well in it given the proper charge.
I have also had good results with AA#5 in 38spl, 44spl and 9x18 Makarov again with the proper charge.
I have found this powder more useful than Unique in some applications.

 

[greenlion]

Checking back in.

I've now tried Win 231 as well. It was just as poor as anything else with this bullet. I then tried shortening the Overall Cartridge Length down to the ridiculously short length that Hodgdon suggests (looks like the bullet has fallen into the case) That did help, and got rid of some of the unburnt powder. The rounds function, but they still have a lot of flash with powder I know does not produce a lot of flash. Ejection is still erratic, but functional. I think I need to try Hodgdon's shorter overall length and go back to fast burning powder loads like Clays and Titegroup. That may work well enough to use the rest of these hollow base bullets for range fodder, but I am never buying these things again. I'm going with flat base 230gr bullets that I will not have any of this trouble with.

 

[judgecrater]

More info. As I mentioned I too had poor ejection with Universal. After some experimentation I found most if not all of my problem was my OAL being too long which reduced pressure. Pressure is more dependent on length than I realized.