Progressive presses: How important to seat and crimp in two stages?

[Walkalong]

They went on to explain the conflict created when the bullet is seated and crimped at the same time. (Lyman said the same thing 40+ years ago) When the bullet is seated. When the bullet is crimped the case mouth locks onto the bullet, as a results the bullet when moving down is crimped the case bulges below the crimp as the bullet is seated,

Not with trimmed brass and a sizer/crimper that is set up properly.

You do not bulge the brass below the crimp if done properly. A roll crimp can be properly done in the same step as seating.

Maybe that is why some people need the FCD for revolver rounds, they are bulging brass when crimping.

 

[GW Staar]

Not with trimmed brass and a sizer/crimper that is set up properly.

You do not bulge the brass below the crimp if done properly. A roll crimp can be properly done in the same step as seating.

Maybe that is why some people need the FCD for revolver rounds, they are bulging brass when crimping.

"trimmed brass and a sizer/crimper" You meant to say seater/crimper I'm sure... and I agree with that statement, and that roll crimping can be done in one step just fine, as many years of doing just that has shown me.

I didn't discover FCD dies until a few years ago, and while I can't speak for "some people", as for me, while I don't absolutely need FCD dies, I do like the crimps they make, and the fact that they aren't trim length sensitive. They save the slower operation of trimming, by adding the unnoticeably quick operation of crimping separately in station five. A fair trade in IMO.

 

[Walkalong]

You meant to say seater/crimper I'm sure...

Yep..

 

[Walkalong]

The crimp part of the pistol FCD rides on the flex of the o-ring so it is less sensitive to trim length, but it can only do so much. The cases still need to be reasonably close in length, and some cases like .38 Spl are all over the place on length.

 

[GW Staar]

The crimp part of the pistol FCD rides on the flex of the o-ring so it is less sensitive to trim length, but it can only do so much. The cases still need to be reasonably close in length, and some cases like .38 Spl are all over the place on length.

I'll keep that in mind....so far I haven't had a problem. BTW, one of the advantages of my modded and motorized Forster, over the Giraud (besides being arthritis friendly of course) is it works on straight wall pistol cases too.

 

[Walkalong]

A word of warning, if you start trimming the .38 cases the superb, consistent, crimps you start getting will spoil you.

 

[fguffey]

Again, I went to Dillon, they understood I was not going to seat and crimp on their press in the third and forth position and I was not going to start over by purchasing their dies, at the time I thought I had all the dies I would ever need, takes time but seating and crimping can be accomplished is separation operations with one die or two seater dies, works with a two ram Herter's or a turret press.

Dillon's logic as in a conflict is correct when seating and crimping at the same time, must be 15+ gigs of space used to describe failure to chamber after seating, the standard answer from the choir is ‘over crimping’ ?
The correct answer is as Dillon’s research found, the case neck locks onto the bullet as the bullet is seated, again and again, the seater die does not offer case body support meaning as the bullet moves down and the case mouth locks into the bullet the case has no choice but to bulge, squat, expand or collapse, on a bottle neck case the shoulder starts to bulge and or collapse, in any event the case shortens and as a results the diameter of the case increases below the crimp and the bullet hold, tension? is reduced.

And I said I had two 45 ACP that liked new ammo (only), in a small circle or reloader friends (outside of the Internet) that are accomplished reloaders offered to load ammo for the 1911, there were no less than 6 1911s at the range, all but one shot their reloads flawlessly, and there had to be something wrong with my techniques and methods, I took their reloads home, sized them with a full length sizer, returned and faked my 1911 into thinking it was getting the good/new stuff. They did not recommending ‘fixing’ the problem, because accuracy was not one of the problems, and yes, I have extra barrels, home made gages, Wilson case gages and micrometers, I took a picture of my gages and micrometers, the picture weighed 400 lbs., when loading for that one 1911 the ammo must must measure the same as new, store bought, over the counter ammo.

And Dillon was polite, they qualified their answer with the amount of research they did over the past half century +, they did not find fault with other manufactures, they said in testing other manufactures reloading equipment they found things they liked, some things they thought they could improve on and things that could not be improved upon, and they assured me they were shooters, they assured me if I did something 100 times they have done it 1,000s of times, and they claimed they used the full length sizer die as a crimp die, and it worked, maybe not for the same reason but they do not go to the range to struggle with jams, as he said, “We are shooters”.

I did not make the effort to go to Dillon to tell they how wonderful I was and I gave them no reason to take me serious, when it comes to taking someone on this forum serious over Dillons advise, I will go with Dillon ever time.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

Better to make something feed, or more accurate? To make it feed obviously.

To use a regular sizer made for the caliber you are loading to crimp would ruin the ammo if you actually ran it all the way through the die. Would it chamber? Sure it would.

Now, use a sizer to just barely touch the top of an auto round and remove the bell? Sure, it would work, but why, unless you were just in a tight and had forgotten to order the crimp die.

An easy test folks. Go get some of your nicely made 9MM, .40, or .45 ACP ammo, remove the decapper from the sizer, and run the ammo through the sizer. Post picks of the mess. Shoot it for accuracy against the remaining rounds you did not ruin. Post pics of that as well.

 

[Jim Watson]

when loading for that one 1911 the ammo must must measure the same as new, store bought, over the counter ammo.

As I am sure you know, the SAAMI minimum chamber is cut to accept the SAAMI maximum cartridge. Standard reloading dies do not produce SAAMI specification results. Most guns - the 5 out of 6 you saw - will handle a little oddity, but some won't.
You might have an actual minimum chamber.
You might have a chamber below minimum due to reamer wear. I think the mass producers will often try to get another day's use out of a reamer that should be reground or replaced.
You might have one of those proudly advertised "minimum match" chambers that is really undersized so the seller can claim a quarter inch smaller group from a Ransom Rest at the cost of reliable operation. There is one brand that Brownell's says "Chamber will not accept a SAAMI gauge but the gun will function properly with factory ammunition."

I had one. It was well fitted and the gun was very accurate but gave mysterious random failures to feed. The gunsmith inspected and measured it, then ran in a standard .45 ACP reamer. It brought out an amazing amount of steel shavings from the undersized and overly tapered chamber. The gun is now reliable and still accurate... but not with the same best load.


Walkalong,
My first "taper crimps" were applied in single stage loading by running the loaded rounds into a sizing die set one turn down from contact with the case mouth. That worked just fine until I went progressive.

 

[fguffey]

Jim Watson, thank you for the "As I am sure you know". I have 62 reamers and access to 200+, I have no problem applying the 'leaver policy' with anything that is accurate, when I find it is accurate I leaver the way I founder.

F. Guffey

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong,
My first "taper crimps" were applied in single stage loading by running the loaded rounds into a sizing die set one turn down from contact with the case mouth. That worked just fine until I went progressive.

Which is entirely different than "sizing" the round as suggested by fguffey. If he meant just barely running the round into the die he should have worded it as such.

You are right, much handloaded ammo is not minimum SAMMI spec, and can be problematic in a really tight chamber. I would much prefer your method of fixing the problem to just squishing the round to fit.

I have and EMP that had a slightly smaller than SAMMI minimum chamber that caused problems. SA reamed it. Now as long as a loaded round passes my Wilson case gauge, it feeds. The problem is brass that will not size enough, not bullet seating etc. All sized brass that will not pass the gauge is scrapped. All that pass get loaded with no problems.

 

[beatledog7]

This might be water under the bridge, but maybe not. A few days back I posted:

Quote:
I'm relatively new to reloading, so the more experienced among you may know something about the following that I don't.

Lately I've been roll crimping separately and doing it by setting the seating die in such a way that the crimp happens short of the full stroke. That way I have control of the crimp by "feeling" the round being crimped. I can visually inspect the round, and add more crimp if needed.

And the reply (there were others later)
With the leverage that presses have, I can't think of a more inconsistant way to crimp. What is wrong with letting the ram simply go all of the way to the top of stroke, the same for every round?

Nothing is wrong with it if the cases were trimmed to equal length, and though the cases in play were close (+/- .005 or so), they were not trimmed to be exact. Another poster brought up this exact point.

I understand why this would seem to create an inconsistent crimp. But if you set the die so that it meets the shell while the press stroke is well short of its over-camming (where it produces the most force with the least feel) range and leave it near the beginning of the stroke, where the operator controls the force and can feel it increasing, it can be done. You slowly move the handle, you feel the case mouth make contact with the die, you ease off and just touch it on. You check the crimp visually and if it's good, you're done. If not, touch it again.

Before precision machinery became readily available and affordable, people did this by feel for decades. Why should the advent of a mechanism invalidate the process of feeling and seeing when it's right?

 

[fguffey]

And I explained to them I had a Ruger and 1911 that did not like reloads, the only ammo good enough for those two is new stuff, I then explained to them I use a full length sizer die as a crimp die to duplicate the appearance of new, store bought, over the counter 45ACP ammo and the two pistols can not tell the difference.

new ammo works flawlessly in the two pistols, what is difference between reloads and new ammo? Dillon knows, I know, the case does not require full length sizing, the case before seating the bullet and expanding the neck has been been full length sized, for those that reload know there are times when their reloads look like snakes that swallowed something, I use the full length sizer die to remove the appearance of my cases having swallowed a bullet, Dillon figured it out, I am the fan of measuring equipment, what I do not have I make, all I needed to do was make my reloads look and measure the same as factory new ammo.

And this is not the first time this subject has come up.

And I enjoyed the visits to Dillon, not all of the visits started good, and no one there was widely indigent about anything, again, I take them serious, they are not malicious, and for sure they do not believe they invented reloading.

F. Guffey

 

[kelbro]

Those folks at Dillon are required to have the patience of a saint. If you hang around there long enough you get to hear some 'incredible' stuff. Kind of like a gun shop. They just have to smile and refrain from calling some of their customers total !@#$%^& idiots.