Seat and Crimp in One Station?

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I would have to seat and crimp in one station. I have always heard that this is a no-no.
What I am seeing with the all-in-one die is that the flare is either not totally removed, or it over crimps to cause the bulge. I cannot seem to find a setting in-between.
I seat and crimp in the same step even for lead and coated lead bullets and using proper amount of taper crimp (adding .022" to diameter of bullet), I do not have problem you are having.

Looks like you are using too much crimp and seating of bullet is collapsing the case neck and bulging.

The crimp is only to take the flare out ... but a slight taper crimp help to remove that last bit of flare at the lip.
As others posted, that is not a "slight" taper crimp. As Walkalong posted, for .400" diameter bullet, .421" is "slight" taper crimp.

Since case wall thickness at case mouth averages .011"+, adding .022" to bullet diameter should return flare back flat on the bullet - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10712225

So for .400" sized bullet, using .422" taper crimp should return the flare back flat on bullet. Try .422" and see if the round falls freely in the chamber with a "plonk".

If you want to improve your caliper measuring "feel" to get accurate and consistent measurements, order a pin gage and practice with your eyes closed until your measurements are consistent and repeatable. Here's .400" pin gage for $5 - https://www.zoro.com/vermont-gage-pin-gage-4000-minus-class-zz-blox-911240000/i/G0688600/
 
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What part of the bullet is getting caught up on the gauge? Im wondering if perhaps your depriming/resizing die needs to be re-adjusted? Another thought and previous problem I was having when I first started using the DAA 2in1 die was that I was belling it too much. Only bell enough that the MBF can set the bullet without help. Lastly (although not DAA) there were a couple you tube videos that were helpful in understanding how to adjust the 2in1 die.

I did reduce the belling a bit, but I may need to reduce it some more. I did watch that video, and it was helpful to understand how to adjust the die, but unfortunately, I was still unable to get it to work. Thanks for the reply.

You might had said how you are adjusting the die and I missed it. I did read you are adjusting the die down and then crushing the case, I know how you did that, you didn't back off on the seating stem so as you increase the die depth you also increase the bullet depth. Once the case is crimped and you continue to push the bullet something has to give and it's the case.

Not necessarily true. I found that as I was lowering the die trying to remove the flare (on a case without a bullet as per your instructions below), I could start crushing the case even without the seating stem installed into the die. However, I agree that I did probably make this mistake a few times at the beginning.

Not talking down to you but since you never did this before I will state the simple steps.

Screw in the seating/crimp die until it just touches the case.
Seat a bullet to exactly where you want it to be when complete.
BACK OFF the seating stem so it's far away from the bullet.
Screw the die down until the flare is removed or to where you want the case to measure, then lock down the die.
Now screw the seating stem in until it touches the now crimped case/bullet.
The next round should seat and crimp correctly.

Followed your instructions, step by step (similar to the video above), and I was never able to fully remove the flare from the case without crushing it.

To me, it looks like the die isn't a taper crimp, but a roll crimp. My .45 taper crimp will not make a roll crimp as shown in the pic.

I am beginning to think this is the case as well. As I was performing the steps from @ArchAngelCD above, I could see a definite rolling in of the case edge as I lowered the die, which produced the bulge again.

Measure a bullet again with the wide part of the caliper instead of the knife edge.

Also measure case wall thickness at the neck. Best done with a ball micrometer but you can get close with the knife edge part of the calipers.

Measure a flared case with a seated bullet with no crimp near the base of the bullet underneath the flare.


Bullet diameter using wider part of blade = 0.4000"

Case wall thickness using calipers = 0.00850 to 0.0105"

Case diameter with bullet inserted (no crimp) as measured at base of bullet = 0.4190"

As a further test, I took an empty case, sized it, flared it, then ran it up into my standard Dillon taper crimp die (no bullet), and got the following measurements:

0.4140" at an upper midpoint on the cartridge, about where the bottom of the bullet would seat to if it was there.
0.4135" at the case mouth.

Pretty close to straight up and down after the flare, then crimp, which is what I would expect, however with no bullet, these measurement might not be pertinent.
 
Bullet diameter using wider part of blade = 0.4000"

Case wall thickness using calipers = 0.00850 to 0.0105"

Case diameter with bullet inserted (no crimp) as measured at base of bullet = 0.4190"
That is all good stuff, so something is wrong with the die or it is simply adjusted incorrectly.

.4190, or even if we round it up to .420 (.421 for that matter), should work (Plunk/fit the gauge) just fine. The crimp is buckling the case.
 
then ran it up into my standard Dillon taper crimp die
Try backing the die body up on the DAA die so there is not crimp and seat only with it, then adjust the Dillon crimp die down a hair at a time until it just removes the bell in a second step and check that round. If that works, it is a problem with the DAA die or the way it is adjusted.
 
Just to update this thread...

I received the "Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Taper Crimp Seater Die" from Midway USA ($26), and it worked flawlessly. Literally flawlessly.

It took me about 10-15 minutes to get it setup and adjusted, and now I am getting perfectly seated and crimped cartridges every time. Nice, straight walls that plunk every time.

After all of the wasted effort and lack of success with the DAA version, this was like a dream come true! I can't believe I struggled so long and hard with the DAA die, when the Hornady worked out so well and so easily.

I am not saying there *wasn't* any user error before, but I am leaning towards a defective die, or at the very least, one that was beyond my ability to get working properly. (Although it shouldn't be rocket surgery, right?)

Now to get the rest of the press setup again, add back in the RCBS powder lock-out die, and make some *real* rounds.

Thanks for all of the help and advice.
 
Good to hear.

Maybe that's why we haven't heard of DAA die? ;)

Both my 40S&W Lee and RCBS dies resize and seat and taper crimp without issues.

I love happy endings. :D
 
When I load for my 44 mag I seat & crimp with seater die, with my 9mm loads I use seater die, then crimp die. But....this is strange, when seating the 9mm bullets I seat shorter then I want, then crimp & they "grow" to proper COL!! Why, I don't know but method works great & they shoot great.
 
Glad the Hornady worked out for you. (sorry the DAA didn't)
I use their 9mm Taper Crimp Seater and like it. (followed with the FCD lightly)
 
Another great to hear! This thread is the 1st I've heard of the DAA die. But then I'm not doing anything special either. As I've said with pistol cartridges I've always only used 3 die sets Until I came across this tight barreled Witness. Can you send that other die back?
 
Im glad the hornady one worked out for ya. I have both the daa and the hornady. Both work well but i think the daa one is simplier so im still curious to the problem you were having with it
 
Im glad the hornady one worked out for ya. I have both the daa and the hornady. Both work well but i think the daa one is simplier so im still curious to the problem you were having with it

I actually prefer the way the Hornady one is setup with the individual control of both the crip and the seating (I realize that if you adjust one, you still need to check/adjust the other as well). Once things get settled down a bit around here (work, year-end matches, etc.), I am going to see about sending that die back either for a replacement, or to DAA to see if someone can figure out what is wrong with it.
 
They have a 30 day money back guarantee. I would contact them today and get an RMA # or chunk it in the drawer with the Lee bullet feeder and other stuff I tried that didn’t work.

https://www.doublealpha.biz/us/returns

I bought this from Ben Stoeger's site, so I am not sure what their return policy is, but I am going to check right now!

EDIT: Sent them an email requesting a return. We will see what they say.
 
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Seating and crimping in separate dies is ideal.
... according to the die manufacturers because they're trying to sell more dies.

I'll admit I have FCDs for all of my calibers.
I like 'em, I think they're MUCH more forgiving than a seat/crimp die.
But they're a RECENT invention.
People were reloading for about a HUNDRED years with one die doing the seating & crimping all in one.

Were they making defective ammo?
Obviously I think not.
 
I think they're MUCH more forgiving than a seat/crimp die.
They are more forgiving in the crimp because the part that crimps is isolated from the stationary die body by an o-ring which has some flex. They still need to be set correctly, but if cases lengths are off a bit, they are a bit forgiving.

That said, I use standard crimp dies or seaters with no stems when I crimp in a second step.
 
There is a wide difference between defective and ideal

Yep, and if I had the extra space on the tool head, I would without doubt seat and crimp in discrete steps.

In my case, these are not precision rounds, but competition pistol rounds where I need to crank out a ton of rounds fairly quickly. If these were rounds where I needed the utmost precision, I would be making them on a single stage press with precise, methodical attention to detail. I need these pistol rounds to be made quickly, and decently, so even though I want them to be of a fairly high quality, they do not need to be of the level that is required for bullseye accuracy and consistency.

I need to get down to the bench and make a bunch of rounds and analyze them closely to see how they come out.
 
UPDATE TIME:

After quite a bit of haggling, which ticked me off, I finally got Ben Stoeger Pro Shop to take back the DAA die. I will say nothing more about this.

I have been busy, then had some hand surgery, so I am really just getting to analyze my move to the combo seat/crimp die now.

I got the die all setup and working well, and then swapped out my Dillon sizing die with a brand new Redding Dual Ring Carbide sizing die, and everything went to hell in a handbag. I am not exactly sure how to describe what happened, but when using this die, I get a bulge under the bullet after the seat and crimp. Doesn't plunk anymore. I can size a case and check it in the gage before seating/crimping, and it plunks just fine. As soon as I seat/crimp, with the all-in-one die, I no longer get plunks. Ugh.

That is an expensive experiment gone bad, unless someone has some suggestions. I messed around with for a long time. As soon as I put the Dillon sizing die back on, I have thing tuned and humming within a few rounds. For the time being, I have set the Redding dual-ring die aside, and decided to crank out some round using the Dillon sizing die and the new Hornady seat/crimp combo die.

It worked great. I made 100 rounds as a test run, and got about 15 that did not plunk well in the gage. I made a few adjustments to the crimp depth, and it looks like everything is working great now.

I will probably make another 100 rounds tomorrow to test it out again before I feel I have everything setup correctly enough to do a larger run.

This has definitely been a huge pain in the butt, and I am wondering if having the power lock-out die back on the press is really worth it after all...
 
UPDATE TIME:

After quite a bit of haggling, which ticked me off, I finally got Ben Stoeger Pro Shop to take back the DAA die. I will say nothing more about this.

I have been busy, then had some hand surgery, so I am really just getting to analyze my move to the combo seat/crimp die now.

I got the die all setup and working well, and then swapped out my Dillon sizing die with a brand new Redding Dual Ring Carbide sizing die, and everything went to hell in a handbag. I am not exactly sure how to describe what happened, but when using this die, I get a bulge under the bullet after the seat and crimp. Doesn't plunk anymore. I can size a case and check it in the gage before seating/crimping, and it plunks just fine. As soon as I seat/crimp, with the all-in-one die, I no longer get plunks. Ugh.

That is an expensive experiment gone bad, unless someone has some suggestions. I messed around with for a long time. As soon as I put the Dillon sizing die back on, I have thing tuned and humming within a few rounds. For the time being, I have set the Redding dual-ring die aside, and decided to crank out some round using the Dillon sizing die and the new Hornady seat/crimp combo die.

It worked great. I made 100 rounds as a test run, and got about 15 that did not plunk well in the gage. I made a few adjustments to the crimp depth, and it looks like everything is working great now.

I will probably make another 100 rounds tomorrow to test it out again before I feel I have everything setup correctly enough to do a larger run.

This has definitely been a huge pain in the butt, and I am wondering if having the power lock-out die back on the press is really worth it after all...
A sizing die creating a bulge only after seat and crimp is not logical. You may already be done with it all, but the first thing I would think of would be to make sure the sizer is set to almost touch the shell holder/shell plate for maximum engagement of the case.
 
Doublehelix I'm sorry but you have me completely lost as to what you are doing and just what it is you are using. What press are you using and just which dies are you using? What are you actually trying to accomplish with this setup? You can PM me if you'd like.
 
I am wondering if having the power lock-out die back on the press is really worth it after all...
That's the catch 22, if it never locks out you wonder if it's worth it.
The one time it does makes it worth while....

Hopefully you get things straightened out.
 
I got the die all setup and working well, and then swapped out my Dillon sizing die with a brand new Redding Dual Ring Carbide sizing die, and everything went to hell in a handbag. I am not exactly sure how to describe what happened, but when using this die, I get a bulge under the bullet after the seat and crimp. Doesn't plunk anymore.
Interesting.
 
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If the case plunks after being resized, the budge obviously isn't being caused by the Redding Dual Ring Sizer. It could be as simple as not starting your bullet straight.

I've always set up dies in the order in which they act on the case. When you decided to switch in the Dual Ring Sizer, you should have checked your expansion station again. Then you should have reconfirmed both your seating and crimping.

Just as a guess, I'd back out your crimp and see if you get the same budge when just seating...this is the kind of stuff that makes seating and crimping in separate steps invaluable; or the Redding Competition Seating die
 
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