Proper battle rifle!

[Tirod]

Handing off small quantities of different operating platforms sound more like a field test than complete justification that the AR series are jammomatics.

I don't doubt the stories of the M16's early introduction. I bought an HK91 in the '70's because of it, as did my buddies. We tested it by pouring handfuls of mined gravel into the open receiver, chambering, and firing. Gee, it worked.

The major difference with the .30 caliber battle rifles is exactly that - it take an 11 pound rifle, and it cuts into the soldiers basic round count to carry equal weight. It will also cut into his survivability on the battle field when he runs out of ammo sooner, because as an average soldier, he's no more accurate with it than an AR. Maybe less with the recoil.

Thumping the battle rifle drum and rehashing 45 year old stories doesn't change the basic fact that the free world's experts keep choosing the DI platform when they can. It's not high road to keep bringing up old news when the current platform is ironed out and does well.

Obviously, Ford makes crap because of the Edsel and Pinto, Cadillac makes crap because of the Cimmaron, and Toyota just makes crap. Sure. Nobody is forcing you to drive them.

 

[fireside44]

FAL kits are higher than what AR kits cost, and FAL receivers cost 2-3x what an AR receiver does.

I can still find Imbel kits for $350. Coonan receivers are $300.

Show me an AR that you can get for $700 that will run 15k rounds, no cleaning, without jamming. Not gonna happen. Just not gonna happen.

 

[dom1104]

I wont knock the FAL, its a nice gun.

I always kinda wondered about the "Right arm of the Free World" thing, when you look at the nations that use it "Right Arm of the Impoverished, 3rd world country" sounds more appropriate.


I do agree however, comparing a 308 gun to a 5.56 one is a little.. blah.

For me, give me a 308 bolt gun with a scope, and a 5.56 carbine and I am a happy camper.

Dont need no semi-auto long range gun.

 

[PH/CIB]

There are plenty of reports from troops actually using m4's and M16's in firefights in Iraq and Afghanistan today of the rifles failing or jamming and the round being underpowered especially at the longer ranges and for shooting through hard targets and hard cover. Similar reports have been coming in for the last fourty years since Viet Nam. Add to this a rifle that you have to pamper and clean like a prima donna, and of course blame the front line soldier for improper weapon maintenance! Below is the typical life or day of a Grunt, you can get hit anytime, having your weapon torn apart is kind of like having your pants down! Not much time to do rifle maintenance even though we did.

Typical day as a Paratrooper Grunt in Viet Nam. Sun up, come in from ambush or listening post, to the logger site or night defensive perimeter, if one of the grunts in the bunkers on the perimeter of the logger site, you probably got a little more sleep when not on guard duty. Breakfast, C rations or LRRPS, coffee or cocoa, hot water from a canteen cup heated up over a heat tab. Water is filthy as you use iodine tablets to purify it but nothing to strain it. You are filthy and smell, although after a while you don't notice it anymore until you get back to a rear area around soldiers who bathe. You sleep on the ground on an air mattress that probably leaks with a jungle blanket on you and your poncho for a tent. You keep your rifle and magazines and grenades and pack always near you, never out of arm's reach.

Go out and pick up your claymore mines and trip flares. Empty the sandbags and take off the logs off the top of your four man bunker and fill it in with dirt. The enemy can dig their own bunkers! Saddle up, put on your pack and walk slowly for ten or more miles(click, 1000 yards) through the mountainous jungle on search and destroy missions, your pack and gear weigh 50 to 80 pounds or more. You are exhausted, hot, sweaty, thirsty, hungry, horny and scared. If you are not on point you almost wish someone would pop a cap, fire a round, just so you could take a break, and yet you hope to God it won't happen. In a heartbeat you can go from sheer brutality and drudgery to sheer terror. Everytime you stop for a minute, which is seldom, using your rifle as a crutch with its butt on the ground you bend over laterally at the hips and shift that damn pack(rucksack) around to try to get the pack straps to dig in at some other point on your shoulders through that green towel. If you are the machine gunner or ammo carrier for the machine gun, or in the mortar platoon carrying the tube, the tripod or the base plate or all the mortar rounds you are carrying even more weight. If you are on Point, or Flank or Rear Security you are extremely vigilant and stressed out, there is no more lonely feeling than point, with a company or a platoon or a squad of men all strung out behind you in the jungle with nothing between you and death but the end of your rifle barrel. Point is interesting if you look down to spot a trip wire to a booby trap you miss the sniper or ambush and are killed, if you look up to spot the sniper or ambush you miss the trip wire and booby trap and are killed.

Never walk down trails or blue lines(streambeds)always stay in cover, squat and tinkle (edit --<Sam>)in the jungle, green shorts, green toilet paper so you don't get your ass blown away.

Be prepared to kill men and see your friends die.

Firefights can be a few rounds or hours of fighting with peaks and valleys and unbelievable noise, and carnage. Thank God for the 11 Charlies in Artillery and the Jet Jockey Flyboys and the incredibly brave Medivac/Dustoff helicopter pilots and crews.

After a day of this, you find a new logger site or night defensive position, even though totally exhausted you dig a deep wide and long bunker for four men, fill sandbags and cut down trees for overhead cover. Put out the Claymore mines and trip flares, have a supper of C rations or LRRPS, maybe some coffee or cocoa or peaches and pound cake, my favorite C ration. Then as dusk closes in the Ambushes(squad or platoon size) and Listening Posts (three men) leave the perimeter and go out into the jungle to their positions. You don't smoke at night(get your head blown off) or make noise or make light, flashlight or rifle flash unless you absolutely have to as any of those will give away your position and get you killed. If you are on Ambush or Listening Post be prepared to get little or no sleep. If on listening post or ambush wake up anyone who is snoring loud enough to give your position away and use hand grenades or claymores before your rifle so as not to give your exact position away if you make contact. If you are on perimeter duty at the logger site be prepared to get a little fitfull sleep while not on guard duty. Do this day in and day out for days, for weeks and for months with breaks in between when the company is heloed in to some rear area LZ for some rest and perimeter duty.

Come back to the Real World and find out there are no jobs for Jungle Experts and Professional Killers.

Now go clean your rifle.

 

[Justin]

I find it odd that among the military guys who attend the tactical rifle and 3gun matches around here, to include guys whose jobs involve combat arms, they all uniformly choose to run AR15s.

Now, if the M16/M4 were as much of a dog as some claim, it would seem highly unlikely that these guys would opt to run a civilian incarnation of their issue rifle when shooting recreationally.

 

[muaddib]

why is it with the FAL there are dozens of pics of the FAL as it goes through its round count but there is not a single thing for Pats Filthy #14 that i can find?

anybody got a link to it in action?

 

[PH/CIB]

Tactical rifle and 3 Gun while great, and I am not an expert I have shot IDPA but not 3 Gun yet, are of a very limited time duration and round count, however the carbine classes are of a very high round count but limited duration, three or four days. Although all are excellent training that I wish we all could attend, and the trainers are experts in the field, one to four days of field conditions as opposed to weeks or months in the sandbox or the jungle, sand or mud or freezing cold or searing heat, is a walk in the park for the operator and the weapon as opposed to combat. Also most of that firing in 3 gun and the carbine courses is probably done on semi automatic not full auto which is a lot harder on weapons.

IF the carbine class guys do have a weapon that is reliable in all field conditions, that runs without being lubed or cleaned all the time for thousands of rounds, that is the weapon that should be in the hands of our front line soldiers, if it was we would not be hearing from combat soldiers about weapons failing them in firefights.

 

[C-grunt]

Im still looking for a Soldier or Marine who had their rifles fail them in Iraq or Afghanistan. None of them were in my unit or any of my friends units. None of them were in my brother in law's marine unit in Fallujah either.



Look up the poll thread I made for OIF/OEF vets. The VAST majority of them had no problems with the rifle at all.

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Let's bash the M4 some more! Let's listen to all the 3rd party stories and moving "my dad said it didn't work" tales from 40 years ago when it was first fielded and take them to mean a common problem in the present! Let's ignore the fact that MOST of the nation's special ops teams are using an M4 platform! (either modified with a piston system or not) This is really getting old.

Things can always go wrong, but I assure you that 99.5% of soldiers you ask have never had an issue with their weapon. Remember that Joe is lazy, and many weapons probably work when not maintained at all. If I had a dime for every soft skill soldier I saw walking around with a dirty weapon with a pack of cigarettes jammed up the magazine well, I wouldn't still be working. Take it with a grain of salt if someone b*****s about their weapon not being reliable. They are most likely an unreliable soldier as well, because they would either be maintaining their weapon so that it works, or fixing the problem that they identified on the range.

The US Armed Forces have the best equipment of any nation in the world, but people can't resist the urge to bash it.

 

[fireside44]

The VAST majority of them had no problems with the rifle at all.

The vast majority of Ford Pinto's never blew up from fender benders either. Not every Suzuki Sidekick rolled over at low speed. Not every Davis derringer has blown apart or misfired. Not every Toyota had a stuck accelerator. "Vast majority/no problems" doesn't equate to flawless design or function.

The AR-15, by definition, will never be a "battle rifle", so comparing it to something that is indeed the most widely fielded battle rifle ever is worthless endeavor. You'd think with so many "it's magazine, not clip" guys here, that mentioning it would be unnecessary.

 

[PH/CIB]

Sorry I was outside mowing the lawn. No offense, C-grunt, but see your own thread posted on THR, dated 3-7-2010, 50.38% no problems with the M4/M16, 38.17% minimal problems, 11.45% BAD TO HORRIBLE PROBLEMS. The M4/M16 rifle platform is not the Holy Grail a lot of you guys think it is, then again, maybe no rifle platform is.

I wish I could access the after action reports of Grenada, Panama, Somalia, the Gulf War etc, I imagine I would find reports of disatisfaction not only with the rifle platform but the 556 round also. I suppose I could spend some time researching the archives of Military.com or the Warfighters.forum or DefenseReview and report back but it will be very time consuming. Go into battle with whatever you want, I am happy for you, but the M4/M16 rifle platform and the 556 round are not perfect, since we can send a man to the moon we surely have the money and expertise to develop something that is.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Three data points:

My friend who is a Lt in the marines and has yet to deploy likes the M4. It only jammed up once on him during a training exercise in crappy weather.

An acquaintance of mine who I took a few classes with in school served 3 tours in Afghanistan and Iraq. I beleive one in Afghanistan and two in Iraq. He was quite happy when after his first tour he was in a position to get issued an M14. He felt the M4 while reliable was a bit to sensitive to the fine sand, and for his job lacked the power he wanted.

My friend who always goes shooting with me has a Colt M4, which is a fine rifle BTW. But I do notice it takes him quite awhile longer to clean it after a range trip, and it does like to run clean and wet. I simply will do nothing to my Sig for 1k+ rounds other than maybe wipe the bolt and carrier down with a CLP soaked rag and it works fine, total time invested 5 minutes. I don't beleive the M4 will put up with that level of care for extended periods.

I think the DI AR platform is a fantastic rifle, however I don't think its the end all and be all of platforms. I think their are several others out their that are frankly better. Namely the G36, Sig550, and FN Scar. However I beleive quality piston guns like the HK 416 and LWRC's close that gap.

 

[PH/CIB]

squat and tinkle (edit --<Sam>)in the jungle, Very Funny, SAM! I about fell off my chair laughing!

 

[chieftain]

PH/CIB,

You really shouldn't sugar coat it. You are just describing the cush days.

Besides you guys apparently had it easy with the gourmet LRRP rations.

Were your loads really that light? My belt/suspenders & Flak jacket all loaded up weighted in at 63 lbs before the pack, the radio and my rifle. Not the light ass PRC-25, but the PRC-41 UHF.

Welcome home brother.

Fred

 

[Robert]

No weapons system is perfect, everything jams at some point and everything will fail. When first introduced the M16 has some horrible failings, but that was almost 50 years ago. The modern M4/ M16 style rifles, including civilian variants, are not the same rifle. Improvements in quality and materials have continually been added to ensure that rifle is still a good choice even in the 21st Century. Is 5.56 under powered at 600+ yards, yes. Is the M4 style rifle prone to failure when not maintained properly, yes. But so is any other rifle. I do not own an AR, in fact I am FAL guy, but let us not judge the modern rifle of 2010 on the very first M16 from 1964. They are two entirely different rifles.

There are plenty of reports from troops actually using m4's and M16's in firefights in Iraq and Afghanistan today of the rifles failing or jamming

Can you cite these reports please? My best friend served three tours will never an issue.

Again nothing is perfect, not the AR, not the AK, not even the FAL. Everything fails at some point. And nothing does everything perfect.
And gentlemen, thank you all for your service and sacrifice.

 

[Justin]

Tactical rifle and 3 Gun while great, and I am not an expert I have shot IDPA but not 3 Gun yet, are of a very limited time duration and round count, however the carbine classes are of a very high round count but limited duration, three or four days.

My point wasn't to try to draw a direct correlation between combat and competitive shooting.

The point that I was attempting to make is this:

If you were in combat and had an M16 fail on you in a firefight, what are the odds that you'd buy one to shoot as a recreational rifle? Certainly if I had been in that situation, it would be incredibly unlikely that I'd want to buy a civilian version of a rifle that had failed me under the most dire circumstances.

Sorry I was outside mowing the lawn. No offense, C-grunt, but see your own thread posted on THR, dated 3-7-2010, 50.38% no problems with the M4/M16, 38.17% minimal problems, 11.45% BAD TO HORRIBLE PROBLEMS. The M4/M16 rifle platform is not the Holy Grail a lot of you guys think it is, then again, maybe no rifle platform is.

Feel free to search the archives, but I'm fairly certain that at no point have I referred to the M16 family of rifles or its derivatives as "the Holy Grail."

That said, in the very information you posted above, the number of people who reported "bad to horrible" problems are a distinct minority. Secondly, I don't see a breakdown of those problems, so we can't even properly discuss the issue. What caused those reports of "Bad to horrible"? A poorly constructed rifle? A poorly maintained one? Bad ammunition? A failure of training or mindset on the part of the soldier carrying the rifle? If the design itself were so inherently unreliable as some here are claiming, then it seems that the reports of "bad to horrible" would be much higher, at least in the 30-40% range. But they aren't. In one of the most inhospitable environments you can carry a rifle in, the reports of "bad to horrible" are a distinct minority.

Go into battle with whatever you want, I am happy for you, but the M4/M16 rifle platform and the 556 round are not perfect, since we can send a man to the moon we surely have the money and expertise to develop something that is.

If your concept of an acceptable battle rifle is a design that functions 100% flawlessly all the time, guess what? You'll never send troops anywhere in the world, ever. Rifles are mechanical, and if you issue them in the millions, and fire hundreds of millions of rounds through them, failures are bound to crop up here and there. The best that can be hoped for is that you can minimize those problems, but if you insist on absolute 100% reliability at all times, no such rifle exists.

Oh, and just to cut the AK kids off at the pass, I've had far, far more failures with AK-pattern rifles than AR-pattern guns, and with a much lower round-count, too.

 

[Coronach]

Mike Pannone did another test, stripping the lube from an AR and firing it over 2,500 rounds until stoppage. It showed the mythology of the jammomatic is just that, uninformed superstition.

Yup, that’s why SpecOps and Rangers in Afghanistan are going to FN SCARS MK 16 and MK 17

What will be hysterical are the logical contortions made when SOCOM ends up not purchasing the SCAR for full fielding. Remember kids, if SOCOM selects it, it will be because it is a better rifle, and if SOCOM rejects it, it will be contractor shenanigans and Big Army meddling. It couldn't possibly be because it isn't a significant improvement over the M16 family, noooo.

Mike

 

[NG VI]

I don't think any rifles other than the M16 and M4 are being used as general service rifles (DMRs not included here, and even so the AR15 is well represented there, as is the AR10) by anyone other than secret squirrel units. All of those other rifles, the Masada, ACR, XCR, SCAR, those are all rifles searching for a major contract. Thye are good rifles, sure, but they will not replace the M16. Not now, not ever, the M16 is too ubiquitous and does the job too well for any of them to replace it.

The M16 family, in my estimate, will be replaced by something when ammunition and firearms technology moves drastically forward. When someone figures out how to make an equally or more accurate rifle that fires a wider, longer, heavier bullet at about the same speed, with about the same recoil, with the same simplicity of design and ease of immediate action, that doesn't weigh any more or prevent troops from carrying about the same number of rounds for the same rough weight, the M16 will be replaced.

Until then I would be aghast if it were ever pulled from service. It's just too... adequate. It does the job well, it is easy to train on, and it is easy to fix and maintain. And there are tens of millions of them in existence.

 

[fireside44]

That said, in the very information you posted above, the number of people who reported "bad to horrible" problems are a distinct minority.

I'd hardly call 11% a "distinct minority", that's a rather large minority. Over a tenth of users experienced major problems.

I'm surprised the AR guys are in here, seeing as how this says "proper battle rifle" as the thread title and the AR will never be a proper battle rifle because it is not a battle rifle at all.

Or is it "clip" instead of "magazine"?

 

[DMK]

The vast majority of Ford Pinto's never blew up from fender benders either. Not every Suzuki Sidekick rolled over at low speed.

I happened to own both those vehicles. The Pinto got rear ended at about 45mph while it was parked. The car was totaled, yet we pounded out the body work, took it in the woods and beat the pants off it until a friend poked a hole in the oil pan and it finally seized a week later. Obviously, it didn't blow up, despite a rear end crash, a head on crash into a tree and a rollover. I was very impressed with that car's durability.

The Suzuki was also run heavily off road, many times on side hills. I never had any lack of comfort in that vehicle's stability. The Samurai was no worse than any other SUV I've owned, and I've had a lot of 4x4 utilities. 4x4s have a higher center of gravity than a road car. It is by design for better ground clearance off road. You want to take corners at 20mph over the speed limit, these aren't the vehicle for you. Why is this so surprising to some folks?

Don't believe everything you've read or heard. Much of it is salted with prejudice and agenda.

 

[Dobe]

What will be hysterical are the logical contortions made when SOCOM ends up not purchasing the SCAR for full fielding. Remember kids, if SOCOM selects it, it will be because it is a better rifle, and if SOCOM rejects it, it will be contractor shenanigans and Big Army meddling. It couldn't possibly be because it isn't a significant improvement over the M16 family, noooo.

I recently went through a class with a Navy operator. He let us shoot a SCAR he was testing. It was nice, but his comment was that while it is a better weapon than the M4, it's not enough better to recommend replacement. Yet, he did feel the 7.62 version would be a vast improvement over the M14 types still being used.

 

[solvability]

The price of 308 is a big part of the decline in 308 usage. I shoot 3 gun but 2 to 1 with the Ar because of price of ammo. If I had my druthers the FAL would be there every match - no jams no problems just fun shooting Heavy Metal.

 

[The_Pretender]

In an economic time like what we have now.... our armed forces are not going to "switch" to a new weapon. The SCAR is being used and fielded in small numbers. After 50 years of cranking out M16's there are plenty to be had. It's a tool no different than any other. It's not the end all be all, just a tool.

But seriously, way too many people (mods included) on here are so quick to attack what others like in defense of their own opinion. That isn't high road, and I really expect more from the mods to set the example, and also since they have the ability to control the discussion. But I digress.

You have what you like, and I return the favor. At the end of the day, we were both out shooting and enjoying it. THAT is what really matters.

If you measure your worth and merit by the esteem you place in your possessions, or what someone ELSE says about your possessions, I don't know what to tell you.

I understand the passion for a given object. And how you want others to appreciate it the way you do, see the beauty you see. Trust me, I've been there. But you quickly learn two things.

1- Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
2- You can't argue with every idiot that doesn't know what he's talking about. Even me.

I like what I like. I am happy with that. I do what makes me happy. You know you do the same.

In regards to the SCAR, I found this on Wikipedia. You'll have to forgive my bolding. Course I took in college said you should be able to read just the bold words and get the whole story. Take from it what you will.

In July 2007, the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 Carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. During the testing, 60,000 rounds apiece were fired from each of the 40 carbines in an "extreme dust environment." The purpose of the shootoff was for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4.[8]

During the test, the SCAR suffered 226 stoppages ranking second to the XM8 with 127 stoppages, but less compared to the M4 with 882 stoppages and the HK 416 with 233. This test was based on two previous systems assessments that were conducted using the M4 Carbine and M16 rifle at Aberdeen in 2006 and the summer of 2007 before the third limited competition in the fall of 2007. The 2006 test focused only on the M4 and M16. The Summer 2007 test had only the M4, but increased lubrication. Results from the second test resulted in a total of 307 stoppages for the M4 after lubrication was increased, but did not explain why the M4 suffered 882 stoppages with that same level of lubrication in the third test.[9][10]

The SCAR was one of the weapons displayed to U.S. Army officials during an invitation-only Industry Day on November 13, 2008. The goal of the Industry Day was to review current carbine technology for any situation prior to writing formal requirements for a future replacement for the M4 Carbine.[11][12]

For those of you not math friendly, that is a .37% failure rate for the SCAR, .38% for the HK 416, .21% for the XM8 and a 1.47% for the M4. Based on these results.

I make no conclusions. I am not the one out there using it. Personally, I'll take one of each.

Edit: Spelling

 

[fireside44]

FAL kits are higher than what AR kits cost, and FAL receivers cost 2-3x what an AR receiver does.

You can get Imbel kits for $350. Entreprise and Coonan receivers are $300. All that remains is the cost of the 922's and maybe a magazine or locking shoulder. So you are in for maybe $800 max total.

Show me an AR that will function for thousands of rounds without cleaning that I can get for that price and maybe next time I'm gun shopping I'll have a look at it right before I decide on another FAL. Never mind what they want for .308 AR components.

 

[Zerodefect]

If my Ar goes down in a fight I just transition to pistol and clear the malfunction when I get the chance. Not like it's the end of the world. Failure will happen when you least expect it with any weapon system. Just a training issue.

But being that too many of the .mil men I meet can't clear a simple double feed in less than 5 seconds properly, I can see where they may devolope thier fear of the Ar familly. Especially when improperly clearing the rifle can just make it worse. Agian, more training required apparently?

I've never met an Ar malfunction that I couldn't clear in 5 seconds. Practicing odd positions behind barricades or whatnot will jam up any gun. When your chasing after your failure point in training you'll often find it.

A custom Ar15 Reese in 6.8spc or 5.56 is my choice of battle rifle.