Proper dies needed for high quality .308 rounds

[texasveteod]

Been reloading 223 for an AR for several months and have that process down pretty good. I now have a Savage 308 that I want to start loading for, but I want to make the best possible ammo I can. I actually find enjoyment in making my own ammo, so I don't mind doing things that some say is unnecessary or "the way do you do that, your gun will never notice the difference crowed." If I can eliminate the ammo as a cause of bad groups, then I can focus on improving my skills to the point I will then need to improve my rifle. This is strictly target shooting and I currently shoot out to 300 yards, I got the 308 to get out to 500\600 and to learn on. My ultimate goal is out to 1000, but I will be building a custom precision rifle for that. Now, onto my questions.

I have read a lot but I am still a bit confused on how to best resize the brass. What dies are needed to properly bump the shoulders and set neck tension? I know I will need to occasionally FL size, but I have seen some bump shoulders using the FL die, but that can cause premature case failure do to overworking the brass. Since I will by buying Lapua brass, I want to work it as little as possible.

I'm looking at getting the Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizer Die, A full length Die either by Redding or Forster, and a Redding Competition Seater. Anything else or should I choose a different resizing die?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Sunray]

"...properly bump the shoulders and set neck tension..." Standard .308 die sets will and have been doing just that for eons. A regular FL sizer and a regular seating die works just fine. Loading for a .308 bolt action is no different than loading for an AR. Except a bolt action can use neck sized cases providing those cases were fired out of your rifle. You'll have to FL resize them eventually anyway and BNIB cases require FL resizing. Case life is about the load used, not how you resize as well.
The term 'Competition' is marketing. You don't need the high priced Lapua brass either. It's high priced because it comes from Finland not because it has magical properties.
For out to 600, think 168 grain match bullets. Partial to Hornady's myself, but Sierra Match Kings etc are fine too. For past 600, think 175 grain match bullets. All using IMR4064, Varget or any other .308 powder. IMR4064 gives consistently accuracy ammo. Moreso than either of the 4895's.
However, a great deal depends on what Savage you have. If it's one of their target rifles just work up the load and go shooting. If it's one of their hunting rifles, those aren't made for target accuracy. It'll do nicely though.

 

[Blue68f100]

You want to Full Length size. It's been proven that's it more accurate than just neck sizing. The F class shooters most use custom dies that match their chamber. They will take a FL die and have the neck reamed to the size they need, to eliminate the internal expander. Remember that this neck size may change with different lots of ammo. Or just neck turn to what you want. I would look at the Redding Competition set dies. It comes with a FL - S bushing die.

 

[Orcon]

I like to FL my brass with a custom honed neck and no expander ball. By all accounts, .002" seems to be the sweet spot for both neck tension and shoulder bump. This will give you enough chamber clearance for your firing pin to properly center the cartridge at the shoulder but not stretch your brass too much. Brass lasts many firings doing this.

 

[texasveteod]

My Savage is a Model 10 FCP-SR 20" with 10 twist, I wanted the 24" but none had it local. It seems pretty accurate, I've got about 100 rounds through it and most groups at 100 are somewhere between 1/2" and 3/4". So far I have shooting Blackhills 168 and Federal Gold Medal Match with SMK 175. The rifle really likes the Federal, it has been more consistent than the Blackhills; so that is what I was going to go with once I shoot all the factory rounds I bought. I was going to concentrate on going 175 Match Kings, Lapua brass (simply because everywhere I read it is its the most consistent), Varget (I use this in my 223), and CCI primers.

As far as full length sizing all the time, I have read and watched various video about how that is one of the main causes for case head separation, at least is speeds up the process. Granted, you can't believe everything you see/read on the Internet; so I don't know how much truth there are to those claims. I don't like running hot loads, I like the most accurate with the least amount of powder necessary. I don't chase max FPS and generally if a bullet/power combo requires max load, I go to a different powder.

Another thing, I know from first hand experience that using an expander ball increases case run-out. So I want to avoid using a die that uses an expander ball. The Hornady die I use take my 223 case from less than .001 to .003/.004 which is not good.

 

[texasveteod]

I like to FL my brass with a custom honed neck and no expander ball. By all accounts, .002" seems to be the sweet spot for both neck tension and shoulder bump. This will give you enough chamber clearance for your firing pin to properly center the cartridge at the shoulder but not stretch your brass too much. Brass lasts many firings doing this.

That sounds like a nice way to do it, who customized your die?

 

[Orcon]

The first two I did myself, and I've got two more on order from Forster.

The one down side to doing this is if you switch to a different brass manufacturer, you may need to get a new die honed to a different size. Due to variations in case neck thickness and whatnot.

One addition upside that I don't recall anybody mentioning in the materials that lead me to this choice is far less trimming. It goes hand in hand with case stretch and brass flow, I suppose. The less brass you flow the less you have to trim.

 

[Bart B.]

Yes, a Forster die they've honed its neck out to .002" less than loaded round neck diameter.

While some use a die that "matches their chamber" that's not going to work. Most such dies are .001" smaller in diameters for the body so minimal case sizing is done. Such dies give about 5 to 10 percent more case life. Done correctly with either type, it's the difference between 60 reloads per case versus 63 to 66.

Get or make a gauge to measure how much fired case shoulders are set back; 1 to 2 thousandths is ideal. The use of Redding Competition Shell Holders the right height for you full length sizing die will end up making sized case headspace more uniform; another help for long case life.

With such dies, you can seat bullets very straight with a ball peen hammer. Or use a standard seating die without all the fancy micrometer type thimble will do as well. The key to straight case necks and seated bullets is using the right full length sizing die. Once the sized case neck is well centered on the case neck and body, any seater puts bullets in without bending case necks. At least that's what learned decades ago from Sierra Bullets ballistic tech who handloaded all their ammo testing their stuff for accuracy in virtual SAAMI spec chambers.

 

[texasveteod]

Yes, a Forster die they've honed its neck out to .002" less than loaded round neck diameter.

While some use a die that "matches their chamber" that's not going to work. Most such dies are .001" smaller in diameters for the body so minimal case sizing is done. Such dies give about 5 to 10 percent more case life. Done correctly with either type, it's the difference between 60 reloads per case versus 63 to 66.

Get or make a gauge to measure how much fired case shoulders are set back; 1 to 2 thousandths is ideal. The use of Redding Competition Shell Holders the right height for you full length sizing die will end up making sized case headspace more uniform; another help for long case life.

With such dies, you can seat bullets very straight with a ball peen hammer. Or use a standard seating die without all the fancy micrometer type thimble will do as well. The key to straight case necks and seated bullets is using the right full length sizing die. Once the sized case neck is well centered on the case neck and body, any seater puts bullets in without bending case necks. At least that's what learned decades ago from Sierra Bullets ballistic tech who handloaded all their ammo testing their stuff for accuracy in virtual SAAMI spec chambers.

So full length sizing doesn't reduce case life that much? What's the best way to get the proper neck tension, I've read that using bushings can deform the case mouth?

 

[Orcon]

Proper FL sizing doesn't hurt case life. You need to have a way to measure base to shoulder and adjust your dies to reduce that dimension by .002" or so.

For finding your optimal neck tension, seat the bullet you will be using into the (sized) brand of case you will be using and measure the neck with calipers. Subtract .002" from that measurement and that will be the bushing size or custom neck dimension that you will want to use. For the sake of having a representative sample, did this method with 10 loaded dummy rounds.

Bushings don't deform the case mouth but they do cause a "donut" to form at the neck/shoulder junction. This is a result of how the bushings work, they don't size the whole neck.

 

[ironworkerwill]

If you're going to build a custom then you'll have to determine if you want a tight neck. If you opt for a tight neck then you may have to buy an undersized bushing for a precision bushing die. And a neck turner. And a precision neck expander. And....

 

[243winxb]

"donut"

The bushing doesnt make a true donut, its just an unsized part of the neck.

A real donut will have a thicker neck wall then the rest of the neck. Its in the area of the neck shoulder junction. Happens when sizing down to a smaller caliber. 308/243.
http://s338.photobucket.com/user/jo...ding/Bushing neck sizing_zpsdrqj9rw8.jpg.html

 

[Walkalong]

Correct.

 

[texasveteod]

Proper FL sizing doesn't hurt case life. You need to have a way to measure base to shoulder and adjust your dies to reduce that dimension by .002" or so.

For finding your optimal neck tension, seat the bullet you will be using into the (sized) brand of case you will be using and measure the neck with calipers. Subtract .002" from that measurement and that will be the bushing size or custom neck dimension that you will want to use. For the sake of having a representative sample, did this method with 10 loaded dummy rounds.

Bushings don't deform the case mouth but they do cause a "donut" to form at the neck/shoulder junction. This is a result of how the bushings work, they don't size the whole neck.

Thank you. So what I need is something like a Redding Type S Full Length Sizing die , a good seater die (I have a Forster in 223 and really like it), and a tool to measure the case.

 

[Walkalong]

Works for me.

 

[tcoz]

Don't worry about case head separation or decreased case life if you're only f/l sizing to set the shoulder back .001-.002. Its when you resize to the full capability of your die that you might eventually run into a problem.

 

[texasveteod]

Just curious, anyone use Whidden dies? They look nice and the seating die looks just like Forster.

 

[Bart B.]

So full length sizing doesn't reduce case life that much?

No, as long as fired case shoulders are set back no more than .002". I got up to 47 loads on one case before running out of test powder. A friend got 56. Others have got over 80. A recent benchrest record was set with cases reloaded over 100 times;maximum charges but the full length sizing die barely reduced body diameters and set the shoulder back less than .001"

What's the best way to get the proper neck tension, I've read that using bushings can deform the case mouth?

You'll hear all sorts of bad stuff about good stuff to do good things with; all from people using them wrong.

Best way to get the right grip of case neck/throat on a bullet is to size the case neck so its mouth diameter is about .0005" to .0010" smaller than bullet diameter. Get a good caliper then use it correctly. Then you'll have that much interference fit from case to bullet. That's the correct machine shop term; neck tension ain't all that good because it implies a force on the bullet that's nye impossible to measure. The force needed to push the bullet out, release force, is the industry standard.

 

[texasveteod]

No, as long as fired case shoulders are set back no more than .002". I got up to 47 loads on one case before running out of test powder. A friend got 56. Others have got over 80. A recent benchrest record was set with cases reloaded over 100 times;maximum charges but the full length sizing die barely reduced body diameters and set the shoulder back less than .001"

You'll hear all sorts of bad stuff about good stuff to do good things with; all from people using them wrong.

Best way to get the right grip of case neck/throat on a bullet is to size the case neck so its mouth diameter is about .0005" to .0010" smaller than bullet diameter. Get a good caliper then use it correctly. Then you'll have that much interference fit from case to bullet. That's the correct machine shop term; neck tension ain't all that good because it implies a force on the bullet that's nye impossible to measure. The force needed to push the bullet out, release force, is the industry standard.

Is it best to remove the expander ball and simply size down with the bushing?

 

[243winxb]

Is it best to remove the expander ball and simply size down with the bushing?

Yes , with neck turned brass.

With unturned necks, try it both ways as a test.
http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/Redding_1.jpg.html

 

[texasveteod]

Thanks for all the help, this was very educational.

Yes , with neck turned brass.

With unturned necks, try it both ways as a test.
http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/media/Redding_1.jpg.html

And, another tool I will add to my toolbox. I love tinkering and testing things.

 

[Bart B.]

Is it best to remove the expander ball and simply size down with the bushing?

If you're using a full length bushing die or a standard FL die with a honed out neck, yes remove the expander ball.

You don't need to turn necks unless the neck wall thickness varies more than .002". Most cases won't need it. Never saw any difference between neck walls with zero tolerance in thickness to those with up to .003" spread. A .002" spread will make the case mouth .001" off center in the neck and .001" off center in the chamber which ain't no big deal at all. 308's with .003" bullet runout at their tips will shoot half MOA at 600 yards; well under 1 MOA at 1000.

 

[someguy2800]

I really really like my forrester seating dies but they are getting a little expensive. The big advantage to me with forrester is them being able to hone your necks to desired size which is an awesome setup. Some dies have the necks just ridiculously undersized. As for the seating die the Hornady custom grade dies have the same sliding collar seating mechanism as the foresters, but are only $40. In fact they are on sale at midway usa for only $32. For the money the hornady custom dies are my favorite rifle dies.

 

[Walkalong]

Just curious, anyone use Whidden dies? They look nice and the seating die looks just like Forster.

I bought a Whidden seater in .223. Nearly a copy of the Forster. Nice, but no better than the Forster, RCBS or Redding IMHO.

 

[Bart B.]

If the sizing die centers the case neck on the case shoulder and it's also straight with the case body axis, and the case mouth is a few ten-thousandths smaller than bullet diameter, you can seat bullets very straight with a rubber faced mallet. Gently tapping in the bullet; of course.

Use full length sizing dies whose neck is 1 or 2 thousandths smaller than loaded round's neck diameter.