If I don't know them well enough to be comfortable taking them shooting without a waiver, I don't know them well enough to take them shooting.
This is how I feel, so I voted "No".
If they aren't paying attention, acting responsibly and being safe, the session ends.
I wouldn't take anyone that I didn't know to the range. I have a coworker that has shown interest in shooting that I offered to take sometime. We're not really friends, but I know him well enough to know he's a responsible person
I think that's perfectly reasonable and understandable, given that taking strangers to the range is part of your business. Given that I am not in such a business, I tell total strangers to go find a professional instructor. I would take folks that I don't know well, but I have to know them well enough to have formed an opinion about them.I'm a CHL instructor so I have brand new shooters with me on the range all the time, many of whom I don't know well or at all. They all sign waivers.
Unless you hand them a defective gun or defective ammo, or give them bad instruction, I'm not sure what you'd be liable for.
No, I think those of us who answered no because we make personal judgments about the person who wants to go to the range have understood the question just fine. How about "no, because I don't think the waiver (which will be construed against me (as the drafter) in the event of an ambiguity) will provide any better protection than my ability to judge with whom I'm comfortable going to the range?"I think the "No" because it doesn't provide any protection is a good answer (and the conclusion I've reached from the post), but saying "no" because of any judgment on the person makes me think that the person misunderstood the question.
That coworker is a good example. Sometimes I do take friends of a friend, or family of a friend, though. Really any time I have an excuse to give someone the first time range experience I would have liked to have myself, or simply help some feel comfortable instead of scared of firearms, I'm generally happy to oblige. I've never felt scared by anyone I was actually shooting with, but I was wondering about the issue regardless. And I've never thought about (much less done) the waiver issue until a few days ago. Since I didn't see much info online, I asked. Thankfully the consensus is that it's not worth the hassle. Which is good news.
No, I think those of us who answered no because we make personal judgments about the person who wants to go to the range have understood the question just fine.
I don't see anything wrong with shooting autoloaders. I just do the same thing you mention. A single round in the chamber and see how they handle.I don't ever start someone with an automatic...never ever...
It's ironic that the double conclusion in this post is "Don't worry, there is nothing to sue you about" (save for the blatant) and "Don't bother, they can sue you anyway". Ohh the beauties of the legal world.As to your form....good luck, it is not going to stop anyone from filing a suit against you.
This is a hypothetical situation. Just a question. It's amazing how many lawyers are around here. It feels almost as much a legal forum as a firearm forum. But I'll say it again, it's good to hear that the general consensus is that it's not necessary/beneficial, regardless of anyone's particular reasoning behind that.Who drafted the form? What does it cover? What is its purpose?
. I'd like to think it is hard to find an adult that would be unsafe around firearms in a range setting with basic training. That isn't to say they don't exist however.
While it would be legally pointless, it might be a good device to drive home the safety importance.
Being a Range Safety Officer and NRA Certified Instructor I've seen plenty. They are safe till they aren't.
This is along the lines of how I would have seen it when I first posted, but you'll find as many people happy to argue that, as you would find those arguing the complete opposite. If this were "a thing", I'd imagine that standard forms would be online much like you can find perfectly suitable standardized rental contracts online (subject to revision and modification as needed, of course, before someone complains). But since no one seems to be doing it at all, there doesn't seem to be a need. Which is great. The last thing that anyone would want is to have to have the mindset that you should get insurance just to take a friend to have some fun at the range.Most well written waivers include a description of the inherent dangers and a safety check list. It is an educational tool as well as an attempt to limit one's liability. And although the liability waiver may be found to be unenforceable, the documented act of educating the participant could end up being relevant evidence in proving the performance of the applicable standard of care.
Would you ever consider making someone you shoot with sign a liability form
Just curious honestly. I see value in doing so, but it is a bit much, so I'm curious on what other people think.
If you were going to take a (not close) friend shooting, like a friend of a friend, or someone from work, etc; would you ever consider making them sign one of those typical liability forms? I ask this from the point of view that they have never shot a firearm, don't own a firearm and know nothing of firearms, and as such are relying on you for some basic training. As well as the fact that they would be shooting your guns. Probably especially this last point. Might also be worth taking into account that, given that you don't know them all that well, there might be legal or mental issues one is not aware of.
If I don't know them well enough to be comfortable taking them shooting without a waiver, I don't know them well enough to take them shooting.
Ditto!!!
Depending on their injuries, it may not be up to them. Their health care provider may decide to go after you (or your health or home insurer) for medical expenses, for instance.If I don't know them well enough to be comfortable taking them shooting without a waiver, I don't know them well enough to take them shooting.
bearcreek wrote:
I'm a CHL instructor ... They all sign waivers.
Millenial Gunslinger wrote:
This is a hypothetical situation. Just a question.
It's amazing how many lawyers are around here.
It feels almost as much a legal forum as a firearm forum.
This is a hypothetical situation.
You started this thread asking about having someone sign a waiver of their legal right to seek redress from you for anything you did wrong as their firearms "instructor". You must have had a reason in mind for raising the question which is why I asked the question what your purpose in asking about a liability waiver was.
Hypothetical in the sense that no form exists, nor did anyone draft "it", nor has "it" ever been used.For now, perhaps. But it ceases to be a hypothetical as soon as you and your "student" meet at the range.