Protest Against Bush & Go To Jail.

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KBSRN nailed it

Anyone can have a dissenting opinion...and voice it.

But you can't go anywhere you want....whenever you want

Not even to complain....

Just like free speech does not allow you to yell FIRE in a crowded theatre(assuming there is not a fire) you are also not allowed into the theatre without a ticket, or after hours...when closed, etc.

Don't believe it....try going 50 mph through a school zone and tell the police you were making a social statement about unfair speed traps....

See if it works!:neener:
 
Just like free speech does not allow you to yell FIRE in a crowded theatre(assuming there is not a fire) you are also not allowed into the theatre without a ticket, or after hours...when closed, etc.

There's a quote from someone who doesn't understand the difference between Clear and Present Danger and Political Speech....not to mention property rights. :rolleyes:

hm
"All rights for All people All the time"
 
Gawrsh...maybe you could splain it to me...go slow...use small words!

:rolleyes:

Really....even Dr. King aknowledged that peaceful demonstrations were quite likely to land the demonstrators in jail.

Don't like the law...change the law...break the law...suffer the consequences.....

Suck it up......be an adult...I have more respect for those Nuns that trespassed at nuclear facilities.

But plead conspiracy in an attempt to get off...not the best option in Texas

Whining won't get it done!
 
On February 16, it convicted five peace activists of violating the parade and procession ordinance of Crawford, Texas. That ordinance required 15 days' notice and a $25 registration fee.

Ignored the ordinance and had to pay the penalty.

I asked, where are you taking these people? And they arrested me."

INTERFERING WITH AN OFFICER - ''Hinders'' means to make slow or difficult the progress of. It means to hold back, to delay, impede or prevent action.

"I asked the officer what his name and badge number was, and he told me, 'Step off the road, I'm going to arrest you.' I wasn't really in the road, but I stepped back four or five feet off the grass, and I said, 'I still need to ask why you're arresting them,' and he then arrested me and took me to the van."

INTERFERING WITH AN OFFICER

so she picked up a sign and went off to the side of the road

She didn't pick up all the signs to keep her little band of protestors from littering as she said was her reason to later refuse to put the sign down.

About 7:20 p.m. Crawford Police Chief Donnie Tidmore used a loudspeaker in his patrol car to warn the protesters they were in violation of a city ordinance against demonstrating without a permit.
"You have three minutes to get back in your cars and leave, or we are going to start making arrests," he said over the loud speaker.

At first the crowd did not move, but when Tidmore announced two minutes, then one minute was left, the demonstrators began to go back to their vehicles. A few lingered after the time had expired and began arguing with Tidmore and other officers that they were violating the demonstrators' right to free speech.

Sheriff's deputies began arresting the handful of demonstrators who had not left the scene. They were placed in a Sheriff's department van, in which they were later taken to the McLennan County Jail.

Full article.

Give a warning of violation of ordinance, wait for compliance of ordinance, arrest those that don't comply.

I voted for Bush last election. That said, when an American citizen is arrested for disagreeing with the sitting President, we are headed in a very scary direction.

Based on this artcle? I think that logic thread was stretched well beyond the breaking point.

THR has become infested with posters that cut and paste one left wing column after another with no personal POV

Cut and paste it...saves having to think for yourself.

I guess loss of civil liberties is okay as long as it's happening to the left...? As for attacking the source of the article... That's fine, but it doesn't dismiss the fact that these kinds of things are happening more and more.

These things being...break law, get trial, found guilty, pay fine. I must have missed something.

No. I don't agree with everything that Bush has done or will do. Then again, I don't agree with anyone about everything. :)
 
I know, let's go enmasse to the President's ranch and protest. During the WOT when security is at its peak right after the Invasion of Iraq.
That makes perfect sense.... everybody knows that Al Qaeda operatives who were trying to get near to Bush to attack would be wearing "I Hate Bush" buttons and screaming at the top of their lungs (so as to not draw the attention of the Secrte Service). This is the stupidest load of crap I've ever heard. Bush gets away with having protesters jailed for the same reason a pit bull rips up any dog in his path... because he CAN.
 
hey! whaddya know!

From Dem Underground
3) Create, plant and disseminate widely “news stories†that discredit GOP policies – A good way to do this is to print out stories in the visual style of a major newspaper or magazine (don’t use the logo or other copywrited material, however) and theme them similarly to the ones that targeted John McCain’s platform last presidential election. Make sure not to slander individuals directly. Leave stacks of the printouts where people are certain to find them – i.e. supermarkets, coffee houses, bars, community centers etc. As in #2 make sure to write these from the right wing perspective, for maximum effect on the target audience. Avoid digital media, as it’s too easy to fact check, not that most GOP voters care to check these things anyway.
http://www.rightwingnews.com/category.php?cat=63
 
peace protesters?

resistance.jpg

http://www.rightwingnews.com/graphics/deathamerica.jpg
http://www.rightwingnews.com/graphics/loveny.jpg
 
Guess they should have gave 15 days notice and bought a permit.

Buncha losers got what they deserved.

I am glad the cops arrested them,they should have kicked some buttocks while they were at it

They obviously don't think the laws pertain to them

Those protestors broke the law and they were punished. What is the problem.

Yep, they broke the law. Case closed.

I believe that many, here, need to familiarize themselves with HOUSTON v. HILL, 482 U.S. 451 (1987)
Held:

1. A municipal ordinance that makes it unlawful to interrupt a police officer in the performance of his duty is substantially overbroad and therefore invalid on its face under the First Amendment. The ordinance in question criminalizes a substantial amount of, and is susceptible of regular application to, constitutionally protected speech, and accords the police unconstitutional enforcement discretion, as is demonstrated by evidence indicating that, although the ordinance's plain language is violated scores of times daily, only those individuals chosen by police in their unguided discretion are arrested. Appellant's argument that the ordinance is not substantially overbroad because it does not inhibit the exposition of ideas, but simply bans unprotected "core criminal conduct," is not persuasive. Since the ordinance's language making it unlawful to "assault" or "strike" a police officer is expressly pre-empted by the State Penal Code, its enforceable portion prohibits verbal interruptions of police and thereby deals with speech rather than with core criminal conduct. Moreover, although speech might be prohibited if it consists of "fighting words" that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace, the ordinance in question is not limited to such expressions but broadly applies to speech that "in any manner . . . interrupt any policeman" and thereby impermissibly infringes the constitutionally protected freedom of individuals verbally [482 U.S. 451, 452] to oppose or challenge police action. Appellant's contention that the ordinance's sweeping nature is both inevitable and essential to maintain public order is also without merit, since the ordinance is not narrowly tailored to prohibit only disorderly conduct or fighting words, but impermissibly provides police with unfettered discretion to arrest individuals for words or conduct that are simply annoying or offensive. Pp. 458-467.

2. Abstention - assertedly to allow the state courts to reach a readily available limiting construction that would eliminate the ordinance's overbreadth - would be inappropriate here. Even if this case did not involve a First Amendment facial challenge, for which abstention is particularly inappropriate, the ordinance in question is plain and unambiguous and thus is not susceptible to a limiting construction. Moreover, it cannot be limited by severing discrete unconstitutional subsections since its enforceable portion is unconstitutional in its entirety. Even if the municipal courts had not had many opportunities to narrow the ordinance's scope, appellant's claim that state courts had not had the chance to construe the ordinance would be unavailing in light of the ordinance's nonambiguity. Nor does the availability of certification to state courts under state law in itself render abstention appropriate where, as here, there is no uncertain question of state law to be resolved. Pp. 467-471.

3. Although the preservation of liberty depends in part upon the maintenance of social order, the First Amendment requires that officers and municipalities respond with restraint in the face of verbal challenges to police action, since a certain amount of expressive disorder is inevitable in a society committed to individual freedom and must be protected if that freedom would survive. Pp. 471-472.

789 F.2d 1103, affirmed.
And that was a TEXAS case!

SECONDARY SOURCE
The Supreme Court invalidated a Texas county's ordinance which made verbally challenging an officer in the line of duty unlawful. The Court stated that "the First Amendment protects a significant amount of verbal criticism and challenge directed at police officers." Id. at 461. Unless the speech is likely to produce "a clear and present danger of a serious substantive evil," the Court stated, it is protected. Id. Indeed, the Court continued, "[t]he freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principal characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state. " Id. at 462-63.

They also need to familiarize themselves with 42 U.S.C. S 1983 SOURCE
Section 1983. Civil action for deprivation of rights

Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance,
regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the
District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any
citizen of the United States or other person within the
jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges,
or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable
to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other
proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought
against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such
officer's judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted
unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was
unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress
applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be
considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia.


I am apalled at the number of people here who think that the police can do what they want even if it violates people's civil rights. The First Amendment is mere toilet paper and anyone who protests that the First Amendment is not toilet paper should be hauled away.

Most of us here have attended protests at various sites where politicians are speaking or appearing and have not gotten a permit. I have been at protests in Boulder, CO, Los Angeles, Denver, Santa Ana, CA, Fountain Valley, CA, Pasadena, CA, etc and we never needed a permit to stand there outside of a hotel or convention hall with a sign.

So what if a person who owned land along the highway allowed protesters to stand by the fenceline of his property holding signs? Would he be arrested for having a "parade" on his privately held property? Would the police raid his land and remove the protesters from land upon which they have permission to stand?

I am trying to organize a leafletting at airports in favor of arming pilots. How many here wish that I would be hooked and hauled for that?

The fact is that these people have had their civil rights violated BIG TIME and there are few here who are willing to defend them because they are "not one of us".

You, here, who are celebrating this are no different than those we decry here every day who won't work for RKBA because they think the government will never come for their politically correct firearms.

I find it most ironic that a bunch of zealous 2nd Amendment advocates on this board are so willing to ignore/defend the raping of the 1st.

THANK YOU!

It seems somebody "gets it".


IF YOU CONDONE THIS TREATEMENT FOR "THEM"; THEN YOU MUST ALSO CONDONE THIS TREATMENT FOR "US".
 
. I think thye feel it is an effective way to sow discord among what they perceive to be right wing stalwarts, you know, us gun nuts

I've been thinking the same thing lately myself.

Was this a "Dean For America" tactic? (I am wondering, I have no information that it was).

Though I kinda feel its not for the "right wing stalwarts" but those that are less than "stalwarts" and can thus be beaten over the head until they convert.:rolleyes:
 
Um, a question please.

Did the protestors apply for the parade permit?

Were they denied the permit?
If so, I can see the "violation of 1st amendment" issue.

I note they were not charged with "protesting the president", or sedition or anything like that.
 
The article states that the progress through Crawford of the caravan was impeded by a police barricade. Individuals stated that they did not intend to stop, for the purpose of protesting, within Crawford city limits. If they were stopped by the cops, that assertion is strengthened, even if they did get out of their cars with their signs. What was the legal basis for the stop? Its not clear-cut to me that the Crawford parade ordinance was violated, at least until after the police confronted with the protesters.

This is all speculation, as idd pointed out. None of us know what really happened. But a willingness, on sorely insufficient evidence, to assume that the protesters got what they deserve suggests a dogmatic and unconditional support of anything perceived as benefiting the current administration.

Sort of like when the bank makes an error with your checking account balance. As long as its in your favor, its OK to say nothing? This article is obviously spun in favor of the protesters; but if rights are being violated, I don't see how it makes a difference who is on the short end of the stick, its still wrong.

316SS
 
Sorry Hm

They broke the law and they have to accept the results of that. Breaking the law and accepting the results used to be a part of the liberal tradition, ie. civil disob., but that like most other good points of the liberal views has gone away. Now liberals want to enforce the laws they like and ignore the ones they don't. Liberals have lost the ability to influence the general public so they have to turned to the courts to get the laws they want passed.
As far as defending rights, I've served my country in uniform protecting those rights something I am more then willing to bet you haven't. Please do us a favor and grow up. If you break the law be prepared for the results of your act. If you can't do that without whining then don;t break the law.
 
"This is all speculation, as idd pointed out. None of us know what really happened. But a willingness, on sorely insufficient evidence, to assume that the protesters got what they deserve suggests a dogmatic and unconditional support of anything perceived as benefiting the current administration."

Are you kidding? The federal government does not control the local police department. The Secret Service did not arrest them, the local police did. Your willingness to believe that the PResident in some way personally made sure those people were arrest just so they could not protest is a perfect example of those people who hate Bush and believe that he is responsible for everything evil that occurs.
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They broke the law and they have to accept the results of that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if the police also broke the law ... ?

Then they should also have to deal with the results of their actions.
 
Bush gets away with having protesters jailed for the same reason a pit bull rips up any dog in his path... because he CAN.

Now. Post your proof that President Bush ordered these arrests.

LawDog
 
Who cares if they broke the law, that law shouldn't even exist.

Needing a permit to exercise your 1st amendment rights is just as bad as needing one for your 2nd.

I doubt anyone who said that they deserved what they got would be saying the same thing if it involved gun licensing.
 
I don't think that a permit is

bad idea, espically the way most of these protestors seem to act. I have never seen such hate as you see when these anti-Bush people start their "peaceful" protests. They really do seem to be Bush is the source of all evil.
 
If I were to take the same approach as these protestors did, only carrying a sign that read "Give 'em hell, George", I bet I'd get a similar treatment.

Who cares if they broke the law, that law shouldn't even exist.

Absolutely right, but thats another argument. I shouldn't have to have a $150 CHL to exercise my 2A rights either. The law is what it is, they broke it. Right or wrong. Tell them to protest that law, then they can protest the Government and Geroge W. to the heart's desire.

Smoke
 
kbsrn wrote:

"This is all speculation, as idd pointed out. None of us know what really happened. But a willingness, on sorely insufficient evidence, to assume that the protesters got what they deserve suggests a dogmatic and unconditional support of anything perceived as benefiting the current administration."

Are you kidding? The federal government does not control the local police department. The Secret Service did not arrest them, the local police did. Your willingness to believe that the PResident in some way personally made sure those people were arrest just so they could not protest is a perfect example of those people who hate Bush and believe that he is responsible for everything evil that occurs.

Kindly tell me in what way I suggested that the current administration was at all involved in this unfortunate incident. I'm talking about posters on this forum, the conclusions they draw and voice, and the basis (or lack thereof) for said conclusions.

My point is that several posters concluded that the protesters got what they deserved, based on the cited article, which in my opinion supports no conslusions whatsoever. In fact, I submit that these conclusions have more to do with who it happened to [edit- i.e. anti-Bush protesters] rather than what might have actually happened.

316SS
 
THe heading should say, break the law and go to jail. Those protestors broke the law and they were punished. What is the problem.

The problem is that it is an overly vague, overly onerous, unconstitutional law, unevenly enforced for the benefit of the party in power.

The sheriff didn't want no longhair liberal commie peaceniks in his town, and overacted appropriately.

(And thank you, jimpeel, for adding some reason and balance to this issue.)
 
My understanding of the article was that they were on their way to protest, and not in the act of protesting. My take on the article is that they were arrested in while engaged in lawful transit, because some country bumpkin didnt like hippies slandering "the good name of our President."


If this is the case, then it is a completely unconstitutional use of law enforcement, and should be thrown out. If they were infact protesting in the city limits and obstructing the road, then they needed a permit. If they were on the sidewalk, then it would be no different than a group of people walking down the sidewalk in everyday life. The only difference is that they had signs this time.:rolleyes:
 
I am trying to organize a leafletting at airports in favor of arming pilots. How many here wish that I would be hooked and hauled for that?

If you break the law doing it then expect to be held accountable.

Civil disobedience is still disobedience and is punishable if it breaks the law. People fight the wrong battles all the time. IMO. If half the energy was put into working to change the laws instead of ranting about how bad they are we might just get some common sense back into the legal system. Quit lamenting about how bad it is and work to change the law or abolish it.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...
The Declaration of Independence

I agree. If it is determined that the police stopped them to place them in a situation to be in violation of the ordinance then the police need to be held responsible and those arrested should be compensated for their loss of liberty, time and money.
 
They were had not technically broken the law, because they were not in an area where they needed a permit yet. The police should have waited at the city line and arrested them if one foot went over the line.
The law is pretty stupid to begin with, but it is the law.
These people being arrested before a crime was commited would be like any of us getting arrested for buying ammo. Chances are none of us would use the ammo to commit a crime, but we are innocent until we attempt to break the law. I don't want to defend these people, because they may have seemed to be just about to break the law (like pointing a gun at someone). However, I was not there and I can't say whether they were a potential threat to the president or not. But if the only harm done was not paying a government tax, so that they could exercise their free speech rights, then this is a prime example of the government thought police in action.
Personally, I feel that arresting them has only strengthened their stance against GWB.
"I don't neccessarily agree with what they had to say, but I will defend there rights to say it." (not sure who said this quote)
 
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