PTR 91 or AR-10,308

[Slamfire]

Yes, but it's telling that Germany itself has moved on to other things.

The Germans have a lot more money now. In fact, Greece has a lot more German marks, than before they went bankrupt. They are still paying off their German loans, and it may take several generations till they are out of debt. Some of the most beautiful seascapes and blue water in the world, and not two drachmas to rub together. Greece is as always, same old, same old. Expensive toys are for those with lots of money.

 

[mshootnit]

There are a few corners cut in the PTR vs. the HK. An HK carrier has lightening cuts where the PTR has none making it heavier. The HK safety detent is a stainless ball on a spring, where the PTR is a stamped metal part. HK furniture has a heavier more quality feel, and the buffers work better.

 

[LRDGCO]

If you value ubiquity and conformity, AR10. My PTR 91 is a 1.5 MOA rifle with Federal Fusion or my best handloads. With PPV 7.62 NATO fmj it's 2 and change. It weighs a lot. It violates brass like the SS in a Polish village. And the welded rail is slightly front high. But there's no fiddly gas system, you could run it on a diet of dirt and SA surplus for a month without cleaning it and it wouldn't care. There are aftermarket triggers, buffers, and furniture. They are gorgeous, devastating examples of Teutonic brutality.

Or you can get the puppy-shooter's big brother and be like all the other kids. Either way, at least you have a rifle chambered in a meaningful cartridge. Enjoy.

 

[ttarp]

A worthwhile improvement for the PTR rifles is a "paddle" style magazine release. However, this modification has to be done in the right way. Drilling the pivot pin hole all the way through is seen in the eyes of the ATF as inadvertently creating a machine gun, because that would allow a full-automatic trigger housing to be installed.

Also worthwhile to note current production PTR's already have a paddle mag release from the factory. And also, also worth noting, yes the hole drilled all the way through would make the ATF consider it a machinegun, however without completely removing the shelf(the part you drill for the mag release) a full auto trigger pack or even the grip frame, still would not fit without significant modification.

Yes, but it's telling that Germany itself has moved on to other things. The G3 is now being produced and used as a standard rifle by countries such as Greece, Turkey, and Pakistan. All these countries are near bankruptcy.

Its more impressive that its currently being used by its parent country in a similar role as we use our own M14 today.

 

[AlexanderA]

And also, also worth noting, yes the hole drilled all the way through would make the ATF consider it a machinegun, however without completely removing the shelf(the part you drill for the mag release) a full auto trigger pack or even the grip frame, still would not fit without significant modification.

Drilling the hole all the way through is similar to drilling the "third hole" in an AR-15. In an AR-15, the auto sear still wouldn't fit without milling out (widening) the lower receiver, but the ATF considers the hole itself as enough to reclassify the gun as a machine gun.

 

[Tex1001]

I truly tried to like a HK 91 for six years. I couldn't shoot it well at all, so I sold it.
Disclaimer: I am convinced that somehow the bad shooting was me, not the 91.
A year ago I fell into a DPMS LR308 for about half the normal price. I mounted a 20" barrel, a gas block cutoff, a Vortex flash hider, my self designed buffer, a Tubb flat spring, and a 16X scope. At 100yds it shoots thumbnail size groups(!) and I can literally shoot it all day (LOW recoil). The fact that there are a lot more aftermarket LR308 parts out there is a real plus.

 

[AlexanderA]

Its more impressive that it [the G3] is currently being used by its parent country in a similar role as we use our own M14 today.

The German ceremonial unit (Wachbataillon) is still using the Mauser 98k! I guess it's more suitable for their drill than more modern guns. Obsolete guns still have their purposes.

 

[Casefull]

I've had an HK 91 for 30 years and I have several A.R. 10's. For anything but high round count combat I would take my Ar10s.

 

[Reloadron]

Given a choice between the two I would run with the AR 10 but more a matter of my personal choice that a decision based on any applied logic. My AR 10 is about a 25 year old Armalite so when I got it the choices were much more limited than today.

Ron

 

[Glockula]

The AR10 is a pretty easy choice here, morw accurate ans easy to mount optics on. Unless noatalgia reasons lead you to the PTR the AR is the clear choice.

 

[mshootnit]

The AR10 is a pretty easy choice here, morw accurate ans easy to mount optics on. Unless noatalgia reasons lead you to the PTR the AR is the clear choice.

It is a clear choice until your commercial AR10 bolt cracks. That roller lock action is VERY reliable.

I agree with many of the posts here.

 

[Glockula]

It is a clear choice until your commercial AR10 bolt cracks. That roller lock action is VERY reliable.

I agree with many of the posts here.

While not a PTR my Century CETME is one of the few rifles I have sold. It came to me with a ground bolt and a tight bolt gap. On top of that commercial .308 was not recommended due to possible case head separation. At least in an AR 10 if you bolt cracks parts are fairly easy to come by. Not so with the PTR parts from my experience. God forbid there is a problem with the flutes in the chamber or the barrel. I will never own another delayed roller blowback rifle. But there are a lot of them out there and I'm sure some have had a good experience with them. Unfortunately mine was anything but very reliable.

 

[Browning]

I own a PTR, I don't own an AR-10.

For brute reliability, inexpensive mags and the nostalgia factor go with a PTR-91.

For ease of mounting optics, a better trigger and (somewhat) better accuracy (depending on which one you get) go with an AR-10 variant.

I wouldn't expect to get a bottom of the barrel .308 AR and expect it to perform vastly better than the PTR though.

People have talked about weight being an issue. I haven't seen a single AR-10 variant that wasn't at least scoped. That adds weight and most don't start off being that much lighter. Many are accessorized into being suitable for a boat anchor.

With my rifles the PTR-91 and the H&K 91 before it both had scopes at some point. The H&K was on the claw mount and the PTR has a short rail on top and I used ARMS rings. Mounting a scope with the H&K/PTR isn't as easy as with the AR-10 and even done right has always felt a little off to me (too high). I just run mine with irons.

Mags are more expensive for the AR-10's. Part of that is only because H&K mags are so unbelievably cheap and decent AR-10 mags run about as much as a Glock mag, but still.

The AR-10 is easier to run. It's more M4/M16/AR15-like (duh) and so it'll be more familiar to a greater number of Americans than the controls on the H&K. That uber-long charging handle on the left side is kind of a pain. Then to release the mag you have to depress either the paddle mag release (if it's not an earlier model like mine) or the button on the right side that only an orangutan could reach with the index finger on their firing hand without adjusting their hand. I just reach around the mag well and depress it with my middle finger.

The PTR is stupidly reliable. With AR-10's reliability seems to run the gambit from awesome to somewhat sucky.

There's advantages and disadvantages to each side though.

 

[FL-NC]

AR10, without hesitation. Followed by SCAR, then FAL, then M1A, then everything else, with the G3 variants in last.

 

[Tommygunn]

While not a PTR my Century CETME is one of the few rifles I have sold. It came to me with a ground bolt and a tight bolt gap. On top of that commercial .308 was not recommended due to possible case head separation. At least in an AR 10 if you bolt cracks parts are fairly easy to come by. Not so with the PTR parts from my experience. God forbid there is a problem with the flutes in the chamber or the barrel. I will never own another delayed roller blowback rifle. But there are a lot of them out there and I'm sure some have had a good experience with them. Unfortunately mine was anything but very reliable.

One of my hard luck learning lessons was the purchase of a Century Cetme. The bolt locked up for no apparent reason. I hadn't even shot it. It cycled when first bought, picked it up days later, jammed tighter than a submarine's hatch. Sent it to Century, they sent it back, cyclable ..... with a snarky note suggesting owner learn how to reassemble the gun.
1.) I had never disassembled it.
2.) No more Century products for me. Ever.

I still have a bunch of cetme magazines I'll never use.

 

[gasmandave]

Check out the Century Arms C308.

I have one and it's nice.

 

[mshootnit]

While not a PTR my Century CETME is one of the few rifles I have sold. It came to me with a ground bolt and a tight bolt gap. On top of that commercial .308 was not recommended due to possible case head separation. At least in an AR 10 if you bolt cracks parts are fairly easy to come by. Not so with the PTR parts from my experience. God forbid there is a problem with the flutes in the chamber or the barrel. I will never own another delayed roller blowback rifle. But there are a lot of them out there and I'm sure some have had a good experience with them. Unfortunately mine was anything but very reliable.

Not sure it does any good to the PTR/HK vs. AR10 discussion to bring Century into it.

 

[Slamfire]

One of my hard luck learning lessons was the purchase of a Century Cetme. The bolt locked up for no apparent reason. I hadn't even shot it. It cycled when first bought, picked it up days later, jammed tighter than a submarine's hatch. Sent it to Century, they sent it back, cyclable ..... with a snarky note suggesting owner learn how to reassemble the gun.

1.) I had never disassembled it.
2.) No more Century products for me. Ever.

That's it!! You gotta take down and lube every factory rifle, in fact, every factory firearm. I have lubed a number of hardware store new weapons that arrived bone dry at the range, and malfunctioned. Probably gone through a spray bottle of lube by now, on other people's firearms.

This is my PTR



This is the bolt out of the rifle, off the bolt carrier, with the firing pin assembly out of the bolt. The triangular shaped thing is called the "locking piece".




Those are the locking lugs sticking out of the bolt head. Notice, the firing pin assembly is the bolt head, is forward, and the locking piece is pushing the bolt lugs out through the bolt head.



More or less how it works.




Which is why you grease the heck out of those locking pieces and roller surfaces. The Swiss have a special, black, moly lube grease they use on theirs. This is a grease gun.

 

[Nature Boy]

Doesn’t the G3 chew up brass?

 

[mshootnit]

Doesn’t the G3 chew up brass?

To quote the Koolaid man "OH YEAH!!"
Take a piece of brass, throw it in a coke fire for about four hours, then throw it onto a gravel road and run it over with a motorcycle. Then paint some stripes on it. Thats about what the brass looks like out of a PTR

 

[mshootnit]

[

 

[LRDGCO]

Doesn’t the G3 chew up brass?

Chew It up? It violates it in a most unsavory manner.

It buffs out in a FL sizer. I have had no issues with reloading brass from a PTR. Mind you, I never push it past two reloads once it's gone through the wringer. I'm cheap, not crazy.

 

[Tommygunn]

That's it!! You gotta take down and lube every factory rifle, in fact, every factory firearm. I have lubed a number of hardware store new weapons that arrived bone dry at the range, and malfunctioned. Probably gone through a spray bottle of lube by now, on other people's firearms. .........

Uh .... well, the rifle may have been bone dry or greasier than a bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken. As I said, it jammed up for no apparent reason. I don't know what to infer from that, the note that came back with the gun explained nothing about what had siezed up or been fixed. If it had been assembled incorrectly, it had been done at the factory, but even that doesn't explain why it siezed.

BTW, the photos you posted show that the parts in your PTR look a lot higher quality than what my Century C308 parts look like.

I always clean out new guns, packing grease, preservative oil (which may be not as effective as lubricating oil) and even residue from factory function firing all gets scrubbed.

 

[ttarp]

The Swiss did use grease on their roller delayed rifles, but honestly, if the PTR is a good one, it shouldn't need any lube. I don't mean minimal lube, I mean absolutely bone dry they still function fine. This is not speculation, I have one or two of these rifles, and lube simply isn't necessary for reliable semi auto function. Same goes for cleaning, unless you're shooting the dirtiest surplus ammo you can possibly find, cleaning is also kind of optional(until guilt takes over and you feel compelled to clean them).

If you wan't a 50's rifle caliber blaster to shoot with iron sights, the PTR is going to be more fun, and honestly a much more interesting rifle, both historically and functionally, but if you want to hunt, compete, or print tiny groups, the AR10 is going to meet the vast majority of folks needs better.

 

[Slamfire]

Doesn’t the G3 chew up brass?

Sort of. I put a port buffer on my PTR91 for two reasons. The first was to have brass fall within 20 feet of the firing point. Without a port buffer, it is like tens of yards, sometimes. This thing will eject brass into low earth orbit. Not a problem for a military weapon, OK? Only civilians reload, Soldiers are occupied doing other duties as assigned, and reloading, is not one of the assigned. The second reason was, cases will get a big dent without a port buffer.



I have reloaded brass from my PTR91; run your brass through a small base die, cull out the cases with severely dented case mouths, trim, prime, and reload.

Based on all the push back I have received, when I tell shooters to lubricate cases before fire forming, especially in belted magnums, so the cases won't stretch in the sidewalls, and also to shoot lubricated cases in Garands/M1a's, to avoid case head separations, I don't think case life is really all that much of a consideration for most shooters. I mean if case life was important, then why not follow practices that increase case life? I am of the opinion that concerns about case life and fluted chambers come from shooters who don't shoot these things anyway. The guys who are rocking and rolling, I pick up their brass when they leave. What upsets me the most, about the roller bolt shooters , is the surplus military brass they leave out, I find the stuff is berdan primed. There are certain individuals, who because of their contributions to the human condition, have to be in heaven. Saint Vise grips, Saint Duct tape, Saint Leathermantools, these individuals are most certainly at the right hand of God. I think Berdan is in the other place.