Calling Tom Ridge, Tom Ridge, how is it that we have no firfighting equipment when the Guard is deployed. Have we found another hole in our Homeland Security? Perhaps a bigger bureauocracy can can conjure up some equipment from thin air? What tangible things have we seen from the billions poured into the sewer that is the Department of Homeland Security?
San Diego Union-Tribune
November 2, 2003
Q&A: Maj. Gen. Paul D. Monroe Jr., Adjutant General, California National Guard And Rick Martinez, Chief Deputy Director, California Office Of Homeland Security
The two state public safety leaders were interviewed Oct. 29 by members of the Union-Tribune's editorial board.
Question: For many San Diegans, the pressing question of the moment is whether all the available resources that could have been deployed on Sunday, when the situation was very critical, were deployed?
GENERAL MONROE: Yes. The C-130s did not fly because of weather. The winds were too severe for them to fly at the low altitude that's required. They were at Channel Islands where they're based. And six other C-130s with the same firefighting equipment were based in three other states, Colorado, Wyoming and North Carolina.
Have they been deployed at all in any fires?
MONROE: Oh yes, all day Monday, all day yesterday (Wednesday and are flying today (Thursday).
There has been some confusion and criticism about the use of those planes and why they weren't used on Sunday. Can you clarify what the protocols are and whether they were followed in this case?
MONROE: The protocols are different this time because these two aircraft, and the six from out of state were all on federal orders – they just came back from Southwest Asia so they're still on a federal status. So I had to request from the Air Force their use and because they're on federal status, they are controlled by the U.S. Forest Service rather than CDF.
The governor activated us on Saturday, so we called the Air Force. They said we could use them so they were activated Saturday. They intended to fly Sunday, but they couldn't fly because of the weather. They flew Monday.
Why weren't they in San Diego flying against the San Diego fires until today?
MONROE: That's a U.S. Forest Service call. I don't know. But they had 10 major fires going at the same time.
What is your view of the mission of the California National Guard and of the Defense Department in dealing with domestic disasters such as these fires?
MONROE: We should do all that we can. All of us in the military take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. This is a domestic enemy and if we have the capability of supporting, it we should do it.
Did you get any calls Sunday from members of Congress requesting resources?
MONROE: Yes. I got a call from Duke Cunningham. I didn't talk to Duncan Hunter directly but someone in my department did. The governor called us on Saturday. The governor wanted me to activate the National Guard, through the Office of Emergency Services. They requested eight helicopters from us on Saturday. We alerted the C-130s although they didn't ask for those initially. But we knew they would need them. So we called the Department of the Air Force and had them alerted and we got permission.
From Sunday through yesterday there were 210 missions flown by the helicopters and 11 missions flown by the C-130s.
But that would include the fires in San Bernardino and Los Angeles?
MONROE: Right.
There's a widespread impression among San Diegans that by relatively early on Sunday, this was perhaps the most critical fire in California or certainly close to it. And yet they saw very little in the way of resources being deployed to fight this fire. Not a lot of crews on the ground and almost no air support. That perception is widespread.
MONROE: Yeah, I can't speak to the ground crews, but the air crews – and I don't know where they were – I know that we had eight Blackhawks flying, the Chinook probably didn't fly.
But not down here, general, right?
MONROE: Well three down here, but I can't tell you specific locations down here.
What kind of concern do you have as far as the kind of red tape that's involved in getting equipment to the point where it's used? Does it take too long now?
MONROE: Absolutely, it does. Our response is based on a 1932 law and it was promulgated to encourage private enterprise. (Commercial resources have to be exhausted before military and other resources can be called in.)
What should be done to expedite this whole process?
MONROE: We should have the resources to fight wildfires based on our historic expectations. We had 12 Chinooks, but they were dispatched to Iraq; we only have one left in the state. We borrowed three from Nevada and two from Washington. We should have better emergency contacts with bordering states.
On one hand you're saying that you had resources available Sunday morning but they couldn't fly because of the conditions.
MONROE: Two of them couldn't fly.
But then you're also talking about this bureaucratic situation that doesn't permit you to respond as quickly as you would like. Did those bureaucratic obstacles get in the way of a speedy response to these fires in Southern California?
MONROE: In my opinion it did for the C-130s because we could probably have flown on Saturday.
In San Bernardino?
MONROE: Wherever. We could have had them in the air on Saturday. But we don't mix the stuff we drop, in fact they bring somebody in to do that and that's by contract. And I'm not advocating that we get rid of the contracts... but we could be trained to do it (at Point Mugu) also and we'll just start it until they get there.
DEPUTY DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: In Southern California, those air assets were activated. The problem with the C-130s is that they were federalized (because of the war in Iraq) and not under the direct control of the general at that time. But the helicopters, the (rotor) wings, were under the general's control and they were activated and put into service. One more thing if I could just illuminate a little bit, and correct me if I'm wrong general, you've got the aircraft, the C-130s that are owned by the Department of Defense, then you've got other aircraft which are owned by the Department of Agriculture.
MONROE: Right.
MARTINEZ: Because the U.S. Forest Service comes under the Department of Agriculture, so they brought these eight units and in California's case or essentially the National Guard believes this is part of their mission profile to assist with fire fighting, they have equipment which was purchased either by the California Department of Forestry or the Department of Agriculture and I'm speaking of the radios and the buckets and those sort of things.
MONROE: Right.
Why were some of the military base crews here who were ready to go, were trained but not allowed to be put on this crew?
MONROE: Because of the problem with the (incompatible radio) communications... When aircraft attack a fire they fly in a prescribed pattern, they have spotter aircraft that guide them in because they can't see when they get down there in the smoke and everything.
Are their jurisdictional or turf issues also?
MONROE: We get floods, you know, not every year but a lot so we practice these things all the time. We have to remind the Pentagon sometimes that the National Guard is a constitutionally mandated organization. We were the first military, we are the militia and the militia's role is to provide military support to the civil authority in the state and we do that. Now and it's only been since the 20th century that the Department of Defense (previously, Army) has provided equipment for the National Guard. But we can't access the active military. Now what I would like to see, if the Department of Defense agrees, is to allow the Navy and the Marines and whatever else is in here to train on those missions. That would be a bonus and then we could use them and we could have memorandums of agreements with them that they would come right on.
So you do have personnel to do this but you don't have the equipment?
MONROE: Right.
So even if you called the head of North Island Naval Air Station, let's say, and he wanted to do it, he would have to get the Pentagon's approval?
MONROE: Yes, he would.
If there were a major fire on a military base in the county, who would fight it?
MONROE: The military would but they'd ask for our (civilian or National Guard) support if they couldn't handle it.
So they can ask you but you can't ask them.
MARTINEZ: The issue with resources is that the military has tremendous pilots but this is a specialty area. The system that we employ in California which is a combined system, the U.S. Forest Service and California Department of Forestry which are the two dominating agencies that control the air assets in fire fighting in this state, is the system that all of us apply. L.A. County has major, you know, air operations as does L.A. City, San Diego has started one and San Diego City. So we, those of us that have air operations that fight fire, it's a specialty.
I have 15 engine companies from Sacramento County in Southern California, ten in San Diego County right now. Those 15 engine companies with four people each on it, they are municipal fire fighters. We give them additional training to go out and fight wildfires; if they don't have additional training, they stay home. My point is that a firefighter with that experience died today. So when you put them on the ground, you put them in the air, they need to have the experience and the training.
Many of us started working on these fires when they first broke the end of last week and started moving assets. I spent Saturday and Sunday on conference calls within my home agency. We have 38 engine companies, we have 67 in our county, 15 we moved to Southern California. That means in Sacramento County now a fire broke out in Shasta but we have nothing to send them.
What would you do if a major fire broke out in Northern California today?
MARTINEZ: We would do all that we could, but I'll tell you the resources are such that it's no different than what happened in San Diego.
Would you explain why forces sent elsewhere under a mutual aid agreement cannot be returned immediately if needed?
MARTINEZ: The way that it happens is this, I have 15 engine companies out of Sacramento County right now, I can't get them back. If Sacramento County starts burning and I'm the fire chief up there I'm on the (hook) for that one. The issue that we have before us today is we have more fire than we have people. I would agree with the general's assessment, the federal system (of obtaining additional resources) is archaic.
MONROE: We have an expression in the military called being decisively engaged. You don't break contact to go do something else, you have to finish that action. If somebody's fighting a fire and they happen to be from San Diego and there's a fire in San Diego you can't break action there, they have to keep fighting that fire; you have to take people who aren't decisively engaged and send them.
And it comes down to resources, I mean ultimately, in a perfect world, you have more resources.
MARTINEZ: Oh, in a perfect world. The system, and this is the balance point, the tipping point as we hear a lot in the military now, how much can we afford to have? Now this is the worst fire season in my 29 years that I can remember, so does that mean, and I hate to use this term, but is it an acceptable risk to not have all your resources? I will tell you I think that more can be done. I think what we have is we haven't had the resources to keep up with the population and demand, that's a true statement.
The firefighters no matter where they are from, they're on fire duty in this instance throughout the state of California. I really appreciate and I have personally viewed the devastation in San Diego and I was, just happened to be leaving Ontario on Saturday and flew out in the midst of that major burn that was not quite at peak yet. But from my perspective if a house burns down in Shasta County or San Diego County or San Bernardino County or any of the other counties in this state, we all take that pretty personally and we all try to work to keep it from happening. What we have today is we have more fire than we have resources to deal with it.
San Diego Union-Tribune
November 2, 2003
Q&A: Maj. Gen. Paul D. Monroe Jr., Adjutant General, California National Guard And Rick Martinez, Chief Deputy Director, California Office Of Homeland Security
The two state public safety leaders were interviewed Oct. 29 by members of the Union-Tribune's editorial board.
Question: For many San Diegans, the pressing question of the moment is whether all the available resources that could have been deployed on Sunday, when the situation was very critical, were deployed?
GENERAL MONROE: Yes. The C-130s did not fly because of weather. The winds were too severe for them to fly at the low altitude that's required. They were at Channel Islands where they're based. And six other C-130s with the same firefighting equipment were based in three other states, Colorado, Wyoming and North Carolina.
Have they been deployed at all in any fires?
MONROE: Oh yes, all day Monday, all day yesterday (Wednesday and are flying today (Thursday).
There has been some confusion and criticism about the use of those planes and why they weren't used on Sunday. Can you clarify what the protocols are and whether they were followed in this case?
MONROE: The protocols are different this time because these two aircraft, and the six from out of state were all on federal orders – they just came back from Southwest Asia so they're still on a federal status. So I had to request from the Air Force their use and because they're on federal status, they are controlled by the U.S. Forest Service rather than CDF.
The governor activated us on Saturday, so we called the Air Force. They said we could use them so they were activated Saturday. They intended to fly Sunday, but they couldn't fly because of the weather. They flew Monday.
Why weren't they in San Diego flying against the San Diego fires until today?
MONROE: That's a U.S. Forest Service call. I don't know. But they had 10 major fires going at the same time.
What is your view of the mission of the California National Guard and of the Defense Department in dealing with domestic disasters such as these fires?
MONROE: We should do all that we can. All of us in the military take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. This is a domestic enemy and if we have the capability of supporting, it we should do it.
Did you get any calls Sunday from members of Congress requesting resources?
MONROE: Yes. I got a call from Duke Cunningham. I didn't talk to Duncan Hunter directly but someone in my department did. The governor called us on Saturday. The governor wanted me to activate the National Guard, through the Office of Emergency Services. They requested eight helicopters from us on Saturday. We alerted the C-130s although they didn't ask for those initially. But we knew they would need them. So we called the Department of the Air Force and had them alerted and we got permission.
From Sunday through yesterday there were 210 missions flown by the helicopters and 11 missions flown by the C-130s.
But that would include the fires in San Bernardino and Los Angeles?
MONROE: Right.
There's a widespread impression among San Diegans that by relatively early on Sunday, this was perhaps the most critical fire in California or certainly close to it. And yet they saw very little in the way of resources being deployed to fight this fire. Not a lot of crews on the ground and almost no air support. That perception is widespread.
MONROE: Yeah, I can't speak to the ground crews, but the air crews – and I don't know where they were – I know that we had eight Blackhawks flying, the Chinook probably didn't fly.
But not down here, general, right?
MONROE: Well three down here, but I can't tell you specific locations down here.
What kind of concern do you have as far as the kind of red tape that's involved in getting equipment to the point where it's used? Does it take too long now?
MONROE: Absolutely, it does. Our response is based on a 1932 law and it was promulgated to encourage private enterprise. (Commercial resources have to be exhausted before military and other resources can be called in.)
What should be done to expedite this whole process?
MONROE: We should have the resources to fight wildfires based on our historic expectations. We had 12 Chinooks, but they were dispatched to Iraq; we only have one left in the state. We borrowed three from Nevada and two from Washington. We should have better emergency contacts with bordering states.
On one hand you're saying that you had resources available Sunday morning but they couldn't fly because of the conditions.
MONROE: Two of them couldn't fly.
But then you're also talking about this bureaucratic situation that doesn't permit you to respond as quickly as you would like. Did those bureaucratic obstacles get in the way of a speedy response to these fires in Southern California?
MONROE: In my opinion it did for the C-130s because we could probably have flown on Saturday.
In San Bernardino?
MONROE: Wherever. We could have had them in the air on Saturday. But we don't mix the stuff we drop, in fact they bring somebody in to do that and that's by contract. And I'm not advocating that we get rid of the contracts... but we could be trained to do it (at Point Mugu) also and we'll just start it until they get there.
DEPUTY DIRECTOR MARTINEZ: In Southern California, those air assets were activated. The problem with the C-130s is that they were federalized (because of the war in Iraq) and not under the direct control of the general at that time. But the helicopters, the (rotor) wings, were under the general's control and they were activated and put into service. One more thing if I could just illuminate a little bit, and correct me if I'm wrong general, you've got the aircraft, the C-130s that are owned by the Department of Defense, then you've got other aircraft which are owned by the Department of Agriculture.
MONROE: Right.
MARTINEZ: Because the U.S. Forest Service comes under the Department of Agriculture, so they brought these eight units and in California's case or essentially the National Guard believes this is part of their mission profile to assist with fire fighting, they have equipment which was purchased either by the California Department of Forestry or the Department of Agriculture and I'm speaking of the radios and the buckets and those sort of things.
MONROE: Right.
Why were some of the military base crews here who were ready to go, were trained but not allowed to be put on this crew?
MONROE: Because of the problem with the (incompatible radio) communications... When aircraft attack a fire they fly in a prescribed pattern, they have spotter aircraft that guide them in because they can't see when they get down there in the smoke and everything.
Are their jurisdictional or turf issues also?
MONROE: We get floods, you know, not every year but a lot so we practice these things all the time. We have to remind the Pentagon sometimes that the National Guard is a constitutionally mandated organization. We were the first military, we are the militia and the militia's role is to provide military support to the civil authority in the state and we do that. Now and it's only been since the 20th century that the Department of Defense (previously, Army) has provided equipment for the National Guard. But we can't access the active military. Now what I would like to see, if the Department of Defense agrees, is to allow the Navy and the Marines and whatever else is in here to train on those missions. That would be a bonus and then we could use them and we could have memorandums of agreements with them that they would come right on.
So you do have personnel to do this but you don't have the equipment?
MONROE: Right.
So even if you called the head of North Island Naval Air Station, let's say, and he wanted to do it, he would have to get the Pentagon's approval?
MONROE: Yes, he would.
If there were a major fire on a military base in the county, who would fight it?
MONROE: The military would but they'd ask for our (civilian or National Guard) support if they couldn't handle it.
So they can ask you but you can't ask them.
MARTINEZ: The issue with resources is that the military has tremendous pilots but this is a specialty area. The system that we employ in California which is a combined system, the U.S. Forest Service and California Department of Forestry which are the two dominating agencies that control the air assets in fire fighting in this state, is the system that all of us apply. L.A. County has major, you know, air operations as does L.A. City, San Diego has started one and San Diego City. So we, those of us that have air operations that fight fire, it's a specialty.
I have 15 engine companies from Sacramento County in Southern California, ten in San Diego County right now. Those 15 engine companies with four people each on it, they are municipal fire fighters. We give them additional training to go out and fight wildfires; if they don't have additional training, they stay home. My point is that a firefighter with that experience died today. So when you put them on the ground, you put them in the air, they need to have the experience and the training.
Many of us started working on these fires when they first broke the end of last week and started moving assets. I spent Saturday and Sunday on conference calls within my home agency. We have 38 engine companies, we have 67 in our county, 15 we moved to Southern California. That means in Sacramento County now a fire broke out in Shasta but we have nothing to send them.
What would you do if a major fire broke out in Northern California today?
MARTINEZ: We would do all that we could, but I'll tell you the resources are such that it's no different than what happened in San Diego.
Would you explain why forces sent elsewhere under a mutual aid agreement cannot be returned immediately if needed?
MARTINEZ: The way that it happens is this, I have 15 engine companies out of Sacramento County right now, I can't get them back. If Sacramento County starts burning and I'm the fire chief up there I'm on the (hook) for that one. The issue that we have before us today is we have more fire than we have people. I would agree with the general's assessment, the federal system (of obtaining additional resources) is archaic.
MONROE: We have an expression in the military called being decisively engaged. You don't break contact to go do something else, you have to finish that action. If somebody's fighting a fire and they happen to be from San Diego and there's a fire in San Diego you can't break action there, they have to keep fighting that fire; you have to take people who aren't decisively engaged and send them.
And it comes down to resources, I mean ultimately, in a perfect world, you have more resources.
MARTINEZ: Oh, in a perfect world. The system, and this is the balance point, the tipping point as we hear a lot in the military now, how much can we afford to have? Now this is the worst fire season in my 29 years that I can remember, so does that mean, and I hate to use this term, but is it an acceptable risk to not have all your resources? I will tell you I think that more can be done. I think what we have is we haven't had the resources to keep up with the population and demand, that's a true statement.
The firefighters no matter where they are from, they're on fire duty in this instance throughout the state of California. I really appreciate and I have personally viewed the devastation in San Diego and I was, just happened to be leaving Ontario on Saturday and flew out in the midst of that major burn that was not quite at peak yet. But from my perspective if a house burns down in Shasta County or San Diego County or San Bernardino County or any of the other counties in this state, we all take that pretty personally and we all try to work to keep it from happening. What we have today is we have more fire than we have resources to deal with it.
