Q ..... for LEO in PA.

[Steve in PA]

"Geesh, maybe it's because I've been up all night and it's 6am, but I can't remember if it's legal to have a loaded obviously non-hunting rifle or shotgun in the car. You happen know the current law on it?"

No, you can not.

§ 6106.1. Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms.

(a) General rule.--Except as provided in Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall carry a loaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), in any vehicle. The provisions of this section shall not apply to persons excepted from the requirement of a license to carry firearms under section 6106(b)(1), (2), (5) or (6) (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license) nor shall the provisions of this section be construed to permit persons to carry firearms in a vehicle where such conduct is prohibited by section 6106.

(b) Penalty.--A person who violates the provisions of this section commits a summary offense.

"Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

 

[RevDisk]

"Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

So, it's legal to CCW a pistol/revolver under 15 inch, a short barrelled shotgun, or a SBR?


Edit : It also sounds like it's legal to have a loaded SBR, short barrelled shotgun or pistol/revolver in a vehicle if one has a license. Sweet

 

[RevDisk]

Rev, I read all the print but can you still post it so i can print it ?

Your wish, my command.


http://members.aol.com/StatutesP2/18.Cp.61A.html

http://www.foac-pac.org/laws/laws.html


Also, note Title 18 (Crimes and Offenses), Chapter 61 (Firearms and Other Dangerous Articles), Subchapter A (Uniform Firearms Act), §6125. Distribution of Uniform Firearm Laws and Firearm Safety Brochures.

It shall be the duty of the Pennsylvania State Police beginning January 1, 1996, to distribute to every licensed firearm dealer in this Commonwealth firearms safety brochures at no cost to the dealer. The brochures shall be written by the Pennsylvania State Police, with the cooperation of the Pennsylvania Game Commission, and shall include a summary of the major provisions of this subchapter, including, but not limited to, the duties of the sellers and purchasers and the transferees of firearms. The brochure or a copy thereof shall be provided without a charge to each purchaser. (Added by L. 1995, Spec. Sess. 1, Act 17(9), eff. 10 / 11 / 95; chgd. by L. 1995, Act 66(6), eff 11/22/95.)

If you're feeling lazy, you could visit a PSP barracks and ask for it in print. Not sure if they'd just have to provide the summary, or the entire thing. Depends on how you read this section and a few others. Other sections also put a burden on the PSP to distribute information in the UFA. Or write to the AG to ask for a copy.

I picked up a few such manuals and codes by stopping by the capital in Harrisburg. Certain offices have stacks of such material and are very happy to hand them over. The more you're willing to take, the happier they are.

 

[Beren]

Yup, by the wording of the law, it's legal to have a loaded SBR on the seat next to you. Once mine is finally approved it'll probably ride-along with me in a case in the back seat.

FWIW, last time I was stopped, I did have two rifles cased in my back seat. The stupid case won't fit in my trunk. The state trooper asked about weapons, and I gave him my permit and generally indicated I had weapons in the case unloaded behind me in the backseat, and in the trunk. He didn't press the issue but could have if he wanted to do so.

 

[Steve in PA]

Yes, if you have a "License to carry" in PA, you can have a loaded handgun in the vehicle.

As for carrying a SBR or shotgun, even if you have the approved ATF paperwork for owning them I don't think you would fall into the exceptions. Also, I don't know if the ATF paperwork gives any limitations on carrying the weapons in a vehicle.

§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:

1) Constables, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens, or their deputies, policemen of this Commonwealth or its political subdivisions, or other law-enforcement officers.

2) Members of the army, navy or marine corps of the United States or of the National Guard or organized reserves when on duty.

3) The regularly enrolled members of any organization duly organized to purchase or receive such weapons from the United States or from this Commonwealth.

4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with rifle, pistol, or revolver, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded.

5) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed firearm.

6) Agents, messengers and other employees of common carriers, banks, or business firms, whose duties require them to protect moneys, valuables and other property in the discharge of such duties.

7) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of any such person, having in his possession, using or carrying a firearm in the usual or ordinary course of such business.

8) Any person while carrying a firearm unloaded and in a secure wrapper from the place of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place of repair or back to his home or place of business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) or to a location to which the person has been directed to surrender firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to relief) or back upon return of the surrendered firearm.

9) Persons licensed to hunt, take furbearers or fish in this Commonwealth, if such persons are actually hunting, taking furbearers or fishing or are going to the places where they desire to hunt, take furbearers or fish or returning from such places.

10) Persons training dogs, if such persons are actually training dogs during the regular training season.

11) Any person while carrying a firearm in any vehicle, which person possesses a valid and lawfully issued license for that firearm which has been issued under the laws of the United States or any other state.

 

[RevDisk]

Steve,

"§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.
(a) Offense defined.--Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree."

While I happen to fall under some of those exceptions, I don't need to. My permit/license says at the top "Pennsylvania License to Carry Firearms". I gather that the term "firearms" used on my License is identical to the definition in 18 Ch 61A §6102. If not, what definition of firearm applies?

Am I missing something here? Seems like the law states it in very obvious terms.

 

[RUBZERK]

I have asked a LEO about open carry & this is what he said.

open carry in PA is legal, but they will get you for causing a disturbance.

 

[MikeIsaj]

Can you give a citation the incident where the PHL cops and DA refused to arrest and charge an LTCF holder picking up their kids from school?

Can't cite the incident specifically. The incident was given to me by a Philly Sgt/Instructor at the academy. I rate his credibility pretty high and he related it as a first hand experience.

I bring this topic up frequently in training because it is fun to listen to some of the answers you get from LEOs. Generally the arguement against carrying on school property falls apart when you ask what the charge would be. I've had many fall back on "disorderly conduct." Disorderly conduct requires some active measure and an intent that just doesn't exist in a lawful carry.

I'm doing this when I should be in bed. I'll edit tomorrow if I got it too far wrong.

 

[Steve in PA]

With a license to carry, "firearms" means the definition given:

"Firearm."
Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.

ATF says you can't legally own a shotgun with a barrel under 18" or a rifle with a barrel under 16" so you won't be carrying one of those, only a handgun with a barrel less than 15". Even if you got ATF approval according to PACC 6106.1, you have to fall into exceptions 6106(b)(1), (2), (5) or (6) to carry a shotgun or rifle with the short barrels.

As for open carry and getting cited for causing a "disturbance", its a myth. Open carry is not addressed in the crimes code, hence "open carry" is not illegal. Basically open carry is no different than walking down the street carrying a chainsaw. If your not doing anything illegal with the gun or chainsaw (threatening people, etc) you can't get cited because someone called the cops. Its a legal act in and of itself. Now I wouldn't try doing either one of those things in downtown Philly or Pittsburgh.

 

[RevDisk]

Short barrelled rifles and shorty shotguns are very legal. The ATF very much says I can own either. They just require a $200 tax stamp and filling out a form with the BATFE.


Uh, Steve? § 6106.1 (the section that requires the excemptions of 6106(b) 1, 2, 5 or 6) is "Carrying loaded weapons other than firearms". § 6106 is "Firearms not to be carried without a license".

Obviously, if a firearm fits the definition of "firearm" under §6102 (definitions), it does not fall under "loaded weapons other than firearms."

Also, if one HAS a license, they're good to go according to § 6106. That seems a bit obvious also, because of the last three words in the title of § 6106. However, just to drive the point home in § 6106, "without a valid and lawfully issued license" is included.

I think you're confusing the two different sections.

 

[Steve in PA]

Yes, I know the ATF says people can own SBR and shotgns, although not alot of people want to go through the hassle of getting them.

I'll have to ask a guy who's into the ATF stuff (I've signed alot of his class III paperwork) and see what the opinion of the ATF is on the matter.

PA carry laws don't really take into account SBR and shotguns.

 

[RevDisk]

Fair enough. I'll try writing the AG to see what they say. Probably "We'll let the courts decide" or similiar non-answer.

PA carry laws don't really take into account SBR and shotguns.

Then why do they very accurately describe SBR's and shorty shotguns in their definitions of "firearm"?

 

[MikeIsaj]

RevDisk

Fair enough. I'll try writing the AG to see what they say. Probably "We'll let the courts decide" or similiar non-answer.

I'll save you some time. They'll say "We don't give legal advice." When given a response of "Not looking for advice, I'd like an opinion" they responded "We don't give legal advice."

 

[RevDisk]

I'll save you some time. They'll say "We don't give legal advice." When given a response of "Not looking for advice, I'd like an opinion" they responded "We don't give legal advice."

Lovely. Probably because they don't want to be held liable, or in case they want to be able to change their opinions/position to nail someone to the wall. Probably both.

 

[Beren]

Except as provided in Title 34 (relating to game), no person shall carry a loaded pistol, revolver, shotgun or rifle, other than a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), in any vehicle.

This is pretty clear cut, guys. Under 6106.1, you can ONLY carry a loaded pistol, shotgun, or rifle in your vehicle IF it meets the definition of firearm as per 6102:

"Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable."

It may seem confusing, but it is not. IF you have a rifle in your vehicle which has a barrel length less than 16 inches in length from the muzzle to the closed action/bolt/cylinder, you are not prohibited under 6106. IF the rifle's barrel length is not less than 16", it is subject to 6106.

If you have your tax stamp, the federal government will not care that you had it and the ATF does not have a role to play in this issue.

Now, could you be charged and prosecuted anyway? Sure. Might you be found guilty? Sure. Just because something is legal doesn't mean you might not end up in jail for it anyway.

Just to stir the pot further:

6106.1 stipulates a LOADED firearm.

Loaded, in this context, means:

"A firearm is loaded if the firing chamber, the nondetachable magazine or, in the case of a revolver, any of the chambers of the cylinder contain ammunition capable of being fired. In the case of a firearm which utilizes a detachable magazine, the term shall mean a magazine suitable for use in said firearm which magazine contains such ammunition and has been inserted in the firearm or is in the same container or, where the container has multiple compartments, the same compartment thereof as the firearm."

Taken literally, I could have my 16" AR-15 in a soft case in the backseat, with mags ready to go in the pockets on the case. The unloaded rifle is in a separate container from the ammo. I guess now we need a definition for "container" and "compartment."

Or a 30-30 in your deer rack, with ammo in the glove compartment.

Isn't armchair lawyering fun?