Quality and strength of Colt SAA clones

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I've been in the market for Colt SAA clone in .357 mag. I was to get the 7.5 inch cavalry length barrel.

The choices are somewhat limited, because I don't want to spend a ton of money. I'm certainly not going to buy an actual Colt.

I'm looking into the Heritage Big Bore or the EAA Bounty Hunter, or one of the two main Italian makers Pietta or Cimarron.

I wonder though, how strong are these revolvers? Will they hold up to hundreds of rounds of .357 mag? I would certainly shoot more .38 special through it. But a lot of times they are listed as being chambered in "38spl/357mag". That just makes me question how strong it is. Like, is it mainly just for CAS, or is quite capable?

With the 7.5 inch barrel, it'd be legal for me to hunt with where I live, and I'd obviously use 357 mag loads for that.

Can anybody give any insight?
 
I didn't see Uberti on your list, unless that's what you meant by Cimmaron. I have Ubertis in 357 and 45 Colt. Both top notch guns. I can whole heartedly recommend Uberti SAs.
The Heritage Big bores are made from Pietta castings and possibly other parts as well.
Any of these should give you a lifetime of enjoyment with factory ammo or SAMMI spec reloads.
 
Another positive recommendation for Uberti single actions. I have the Beretta Stampede version and can readily attest to it being well built with an overall fit and finish that's first rate.
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Actually Cimarron offer them from Uberti and Pietta. I'd say it's a toss up as far as quality of those two. I have all Uberti in the Model P guns but the Pietta are good guns too.

One think to keep in mind is if you want the original 4 click real colt style action that is pure and simple then you need to go with the Pietta or with the old model frame from Cimarron to get that style action still in a Uberti. Not sure how much longer those will be available either as Uberti is going with the new fangled lawyer safety system in their guns now.
 
The 357 is not a cartridge that is particularly stressful for a large handgun. The pressure is the same as the 9x19mm. It does usually burn more powder which accelerates flame erosion, but most guns are still capable of withstanding 100,000 rounds or more. The 357 produces more recoil energy, but a large steel 357 revolver ends up having less recoil velocity than a plastic 9mm pistol.

So the only practical concerns shooting 357, or should I say, 357 pressures, in a single action revolver would be if it were made in a time when metallurgy was dubious. This is just not likely to apply to anything chambered in 357, but it could be an issue if shooting old 38 revolvers loaded to high pressures. Still, this is what Elmer Keith was doing back in the late 1920's and early 30's.

On the other hand, the cartridge is not the thing that tends to wear out revolvers. On a single action, I would imagine the first things to go would be the hand or the cylinder stop or the notches. The maker has to be clever to harden each of these elements in a practical way. We want the cylinder ratchet and notches to be very hard so they don't wear, but we don't want the cylinder hardened like glass so that it shatters upon failure. Because the cylinder can't be hardened to the point of brittleness, it necessarily has some softness. It would be an easy thing to make a hand and cylinder stop that was brutally hard and never exhibited any wear, but they would dig the hell out of the softer cylinder. So what to do? Perhaps a clever maker could differentially harden the cylinder and ratchet, but not likely the notches also. Would we rather replace a worn hand and cylinder stop or replace a worn cylinder?

I believe Colt, Standard Manufacturing, and Uberti make pretty durable 1873 types, and Ruger makes a durable similitude. The only reason I don't mention another brand is because of my own ignorance. I just don't know and obviously that doesn't mean it isn't. I will say that if you can't afford a lot of shooting, you'll probably never find out. If you can afford a lot of shooting, then saving the cost of a few thousand rounds on the gun doesn't seem worth it.
 
I actually prefer the Italian clones over the Ruger models when it comes to SAA. I have a Great Western II in .357 by Pietta, and it's a tank. Balances better than a Blackhawk and should still outlive me.

Down side, only 5 beans in the wheel.
Upside, 4 Clicks hello.
 
As stated above the Pietta’s are the closest true clones available today. I have 2 of them and have no complaints. They have a 2 position cylinder pin that is easily swapped out to a original design. .357 rocks!
 
Here's a 1st Gen SAA .357 I'd let ya have cheap...well, pretty cheap. Just kidding.

Sights, hammer, and trigger by King Gun Sight Co. of San Francisco, Calif. I've shot hundreds of .357 and more .38 Special. I bet the clones are as good as this Old Timer.

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A5774C58-6159-44C3-B0E9-0A09F9C94559.jpeg 2994356B-BC87-4D0A-9A8D-B2E187EF4FFA.jpeg My Uberti 7th Cav model in.45 has the black powder frame, bullseye ejector and the the musical 4 clicks and all. Absolutely a piece of art and makes me smile every time I shoot it. Reloading my own black powder cartridges helps heighten the experience.
 
I wonder though, how strong are these revolvers? Will they hold up to hundreds of rounds of .357 mag? I would certainly shoot more .38 special through it. But a lot of times they are listed as being chambered in "38spl/357mag". That just makes me question how strong it is. Like, is it mainly just for CAS, or is quite capable?

Howdy

This question gets asked a lot.

The 357 Magnum cartridge was developed by Smith and Wesson in 1935. That same year it was first chambered in the Colt Single Action Army. That was a long time ago, plenty of time for any problems to have arisen.

The SAA is a large revolver. There is plenty of steel surrounding the chambers to contain the pressure generated by the 357 Magnum cartridge.

Here is a photo that will help tell the story. On the left is a 357 Magnum cylinder from a Ruger New Vaquero. On the right is a 357 Magnum cylinder from a Smith and Wesson Model 28.

The S&W cylinder is from an N frame revolver, the large size that was first used for the 357 Magnum cartridge in 1935. While not a Colt, the Ruger New Vaquero cylinder has dimensions very similar to a Colt.

Notice how much steel there is between chambers. Both of these cylinders are plenty strong enough for standard 357 Magnum loads, as are the cylinders of a Colt or Italian replica of the Colt.

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As has been stated, Cimarron is not a manufacturer, they import Italian revolvers made by Pietta and Uberti.


So the only practical concerns shooting 357, or should I say, 357 pressures, in a single action revolver would be if it were made in a time when metallurgy was dubious.

In 1935 Colt was using fine grain, high tensile strength ordnance steel for their 357 Magnum cylinders. Plenty strong enough for the cartridge.

On the other hand, the cartridge is not the thing that tends to wear out revolvers. On a single action, I would imagine the first things to go would be the hand or the cylinder stop or the notches. The maker has to be clever to harden each of these elements in a practical way. We want the cylinder ratchet and notches to be very hard so they don't wear, but we don't want the cylinder hardened like glass so that it shatters upon failure. Because the cylinder can't be hardened to the point of brittleness, it necessarily has some softness. It would be an easy thing to make a hand and cylinder stop that was brutally hard and never exhibited any wear, but they would dig the hell out of the softer cylinder. So what to do? Perhaps a clever maker could differentially harden the cylinder and ratchet, but not likely the notches also. Would we rather replace a worn hand and cylinder stop or replace a worn cylinder?

I have Colts that are over 100 years old. The cylinder ratchets and notches are fine, they do not wear out.

The biggest weakness of the Colt design was the leaf type springs they used. Leaf springs can become work hardened and can break. The two most common failures in a Colt or Colt type revolver are the split trigger/bolt spring and the hand spring.

These broken parts are from a 2nd Generation Colt Single Action Army. The part at the top is the trigger/bolt spring. That is the way they tend to break, right at the base of one of the arms.

The other part is the bolt. The bolt on a Colt or Italian replica is made of spring steel and one of the arms flexes every time hammer cam flashes by it as the hammer falls. This arm failed. Notice it broke right at the weakest point, where the metal is the thinnest around the hole.

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It is quite common for the split trigger/bolt spring to break in the old Colt design. I'm not saying they will break soon, as I said the parts in my 100 year old Colts are still working fine. In my experience the bolt breaking like that is unusual. The split spring and the hand spring breaking is not. Also, I have never heard of the leaf type mainspring (hammer spring) in a Colt breaking.

These are the lockwork parts of a Colt. The handspring is the curved spring attached to the hand. When this spring breaks it generally breaks at the sharp curve at the bottom where it is pressed into the hand.


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Because of this, most of the Italian replicas being imported today have substituted a coil spring similar to what Ruger uses for their hand springs, so that problem with import hand springs does not exist anymore.

Long, long ago, Ruger substituted coil springs for all the springs in their revolvers, I have never heard of a Ruger coil spring breaking.

Again, I am not saying that an old fashioned leaf spring is going to fail tomorrow, they usually work for many years. However they can break.

I substituted an after market wire spring for the normal split trigger/bolt spring in this Colt a long time ago. No, this is not the Colt that suffered the broken springs, that one has had traditional parts reinstalled.

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P.S. I have no experience with the Heritage revolvers or Bounty Hunters, so I cannot speak for them.
 
Jimster

I have your Uberti Cavalry Model's older, distant cousin; an Armi San Marco Hartford Model Single Action Army imported by EMF. Like yourself I enjoy every little nuance of these revolvers!

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Good info. I would still point out that wear is not measured in years but in use. The age in years is still useful with respect to at what point in history guns were being built to the level of durability we might expect. Durability would be better measured in thousands of rounds fired or thousands of action cycles. Springs are a wear item that we might expect to replace on any firearm after some number of thousand cycles. Bolt notches, bolts, ratchets and hands should last much longer but won't last indefinitely. 100 years perhaps, but less likely 100,000 rounds. A truly durable revolver will last several times that, but there are many that won't.
 
I beg to differ.

It is well known that the leaf springs in Colt revolvers are prone to breakage. Why else did Ruger get rid of all the leaf springs in their revolvers? Leaf springs are not a wear item, they simply break because they build up stresses over time. Coil springs can withstand many more cycles than leaf springs because the amount of deflection is divided by the number of coils. Leaf springs break because they tend to concentrate the deflection in a smaller area, so they build up stresses through work hardening. That is why way back in the 1950s Ruger went to coil springs in all their revolvers. Trust me on this, I have replaced broken leaf springs in fellow shooters revolvers during the lunch break at CAS matches. Relatively new springs in relatively new revolvers.

As for bolt notches, many, many years ago Smith and Wesson used to insert special hardened pieces of steel in the wear areas of the locking notches on their cylinders. This photo shows the hardened inserts in the cylinder of a S&W Safety Hammerless revolver. I forget right now when this revolver was made, I would have to look it up in my notes. Probably sometime in the 1880s.

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A closer look. The dark horizontal lines are the hardened inserts.

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My point is, S&W stopped putting these inserts in many, many years ago, sometime before 1900, because they realized the notches were not wearing enough to need them.



This 38-40 Bisley Colt left the factory in either 1908 or 1909. Again, I would have to consult my notes to say exactly which year. Notice there is almost no blue left on it, the surfaces have mostly oxidized to a dark patina.

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Notice it has seen some abuse over the years, the ejector rod handle is bent, and I have no intention of trying to straighten it out for fear of breaking it off.

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The cylinder shows the tell tale evidence of the hammer having been lowered from the half cock position many times, causing a wear ring to form on the cylinder between the locking notches. This cylinder was made long before Colt was using the high strength steel that I mentioned earlier in regard to the 357 Magnum Cartridge. Still, with all the wear and abuse it has seen, it still functions fine. I cannot say how many times it has been fired in the last 111 years or so, but the gun tells me the action has been cycled a great deal in all that time. Notice there is no significant wear or peening of the locking slots. I don't have a photo handy of the ratchet teeth but the ratchet teeth on the cylinder of a revolver are specifically designed for long wear, because they have a broad surface that contacts the hand.

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You’re knowledge and research on these firearms is most epic. Your patience in sharing your knowledge is most commendable. Super impressive!
 
As usual, Driftwood has eloquently covered all of the aspects that you need to know about traditional single actions and the Italian clones, and their downsides.

In my opinion though, you might be describing two different revolvers for two different purposes.

The revolvers that you mention are all great guns if you want to own and shoot a replica of a Colt because it is a true replica. However, all of these revolvers seem to be available only with fixed sights and will likely shoot a little bit right, left, high or low at even 25 yards. (2" or 3" probably, although yours might be better or worse, or it might be bang on. It's just the luck of the draw.)
And, you can't adjust the point of impact short of filing down the front sight if it shoots low.

And, you can't adjust the sights to compensate for an elevation change in point of impact based on heavy recoiling loads or light recoiling loads. (.357 magnum or .38 Special)

None of this is important for shooting at tin cans or paper targets of course. It's all for fun.

But, with handgun hunting you may be shooting from a braced position at game that is 50 yards away.
For this you want well-defined and adjustable target sights. The Ruger Blackhawk has excellent sights, and has all coil springs that won't break. Overall, in .357 magnum the gun is built like a tank and will withstand heavy handloads, which might create wear in the cylinder frame of replica revolvers. Various models have been the standard for handgun hunting since the 1950s.

But, it's up to you. With practice you might well be able to kill a deer at 50 yards just as well with a fixed sighted revolver if the sights are pretty close to POI, and factory .357 loads are all that you need. And, your replica will stand up to factory loads very well for forever probably. So a replica might serve you fine for both range shooting and handgun hunting.

But, as a dedicated hunting revolver a Ruger Blackhawk would be a better choice.
 
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